2013+ TLC Suspension Sag (1 Viewer)

[sigmundsauer]

Gents,

Long-time lurker posting for the first time.

My wife and I picked up a certified 2013 TLC on the day after Thanksgiving. We drove it nearly 300 miles home from across the state and once parking it in the driveway I nearly immediately noticed that the suspension did not appear the same as our 2008 TLC. After studying it I confirmed that the driver's side suspension is sagging. Taking the yardstick to the wheel wells shows about a 1/2" down on the front and about an inch down on the rear. The passenger side wheel wells measure identical to my 2008. The vehicle is visibly lopsided viewing from the rear, and drives considerably softer than our 2008 (more like a Cadillac...ugh).

At first I thought no problem, Toyota will get this right. I suspected that it was simply not a properly calibrated KDSS. I highly doubted there was any mechanical failure or even malfunction as it only had 8,500 miles on the odo and no signs of abuse. So, I took it straight to the dealership. At first glance they acknowledged the suspension sag but admitted that they hadn't a clue as to what it might be as they've never seen a TLC with the problem nor knew where to begin to look. I suggested it might be the KDSS. The service director called me the next day and asked if I could bring the TLC back in so that he could take some suspension measurements to confirm whether or not there was any suspension damage (there wasn't). He consulted Toyota and stated that I'm not alone, that they are tracking about 50 other "newer" TLCs exhibiting the same driver's side sag and that there was no known fix or acknowledgement that there is actually anything wrong with the truck. I suspect "newer" means 2013 or later. He did measure the wheel wells on a new 2014 on the lot and confirmed that it too had some driver's side sag but only about a 1/2".

I have noticed that the degree of sag varies from day to day. It typically ranges from about .75" to 1.25" on the rear well, but I've measured it nearly perfectly level once while filling up at the gas station. I now carry a yard stick on the truck just to measure it to judge consistency. Measures about the same regardless of how much fuel is in the tank....which is on the passenger side, of course.

The dealer has yet to return my calls in over a week after taking the measurements. I've left multiple voicemails to be met by silence.

I am growing increasingly concerned that Toyota is not interested in correcting this problem or even will acknowledge it as a problem. I still suspect that it is simply a KDSS calibration issue but it appears that it is not an anomaly but likely endemic to the recent model refresh. Frankly, I'm not sure how to proceed. I am wholly dissatisfied with having just laid down a ton of cash for the best vehicle on the planet to discover that it appears that Toyota is distancing themselves from it. I absolutely refuse to accept that this is just simply how it's supposed to be. There's no way that a $70K+ vehicle is supposed to be lopsided and I'm concerned about its ability to safely operate under full payload and trailer load. My wife and I bought this particular vehicle in lieu of a Tundra expressly for the purposes of doing cross-country travel with full payload and a 6,000+ lbs trailer. I haven't even paid the taxes on it yet...and am considering giving the vehicle back to them.

Anybody else seeing this driver's side suspension sag on their 2013+ TLC?

What to do?

Tim

 

[Overlake]

Would you only be happy if it's perfectly level all the time? What's your expectation?

If I were you I'd calibrate it myself. There are instructions available here via search. If still "sagging" then sell it.

 

[bjowett]

Tim, I feel for you, as things like this once also bothered me. Since the dealer you purchased from is not helpful, there's no need to stick with them... do you have one local, that perhaps is receptive to dealing with things like this?

 

[arich]

Can you give us your location? Perhaps one of knows of a better dealership. Greenwich, CT has a great LC mechanic named Jared.

 

[sigmundsauer]

Would you only be happy if it's perfectly level all the time? What's your expectation?

If I were you I'd calibrate it myself. There are instructions available here via search. If still "sagging" then sell it.

Friend, I just paid over $60K for this Land Cruiser. Selling it is not at the top of my list.

My expectation is that the suspension is calibrated like my 2008 or any other 200-series operating as designed at full spec. Does it have to be perfect? No. But at this price point and for a vehicle built to higher standards it needs to be right. I dare say anyone who lays out similar cash would equally not want to accept it as lopsided. My FJ has a driver's side lean due to the battery and gas tank. I will accept it as designed. The TLC was not designed this way.

In terms of calibration, it's not just a matter of re-equalizing the KDSS. Initially I thought it was, but it's clear the suspension is actually sagging, which affects ground clearance, stability, payload, and ride quality - only one of these could potentially be corrected by re-equalizing the system.

Tim

 

[sigmundsauer]

Tim, I feel for you, as things like this once also bothered me. Since the dealer you purchased from is not helpful, there's no need to stick with them... do you have one local, that perhaps is receptive to dealing with things like this?

I wouldn't say the dealership is the problem. I think it's corporate or at least the regional Toyota.

I'm on the north side of Kansas City and am working with the dealer that I purchased the vehicle from. The TLC is actually a former demo that the president of the dealership was driving, or so I am told. He's driving another now and supposedly brought his in to get the suspension looked at as well after being informed of my issue.

Tim

 

[Overlake]

Friend, I just paid over $60K for this Land Cruiser. Selling it is not at the top of my list.

My expectation is that the suspension is calibrated like my 2008 or any other 200-series operating as designed at full spec. Does it have to be perfect? No. But at this price point and for a vehicle built to higher standards it needs to be right. I dare say anyone who lays out similar cash would equally not want to accept it as lopsided. My FJ has a driver's side lean due to the battery and gas tank. I will accept it as designed. The TLC was not designed this way.

In terms of calibration, it's not just a matter of re-equalizing the KDSS. Initially I thought it was, but it's clear the suspension is actually sagging, which affects ground clearance, stability, payload, and ride quality - only one of these could potentially be corrected by re-equalizing the system.

Tim

Breathe?

Lean isn't foreign to 4x4s. A simple Google search brings multiple makes and models from other owners up in arms.

What do you define as "full spec"? Pics?

 

[jglc2013]

My wife has a 2013 200 and ours has exhibited the exact same issue you describe since day one. As in your case, I immediately took ours to the dealer with measurements and much feigned head scratching ensued. After a fair bit of research I reached the same conclusion you did, that it's likely a calibration issue with the KDSS.

I decided I'd rather not mess with it and left it alone. Like you, we experience days when it seems more uneven than others, but after approx. 30K miles it hasn't affected anything. We've been on some pretty epic road trips with seriously snowy roads and our tank hasn't missed a beat, even if there's a little sag now and again.

There is a documented procedure floating around here that details the steps to equalize the system. My bet is that a competent dealer or suspension shop can handle what appears to be a straightforward process. Agree that it ought to be right straight from the factory, but I don't think you should let it sour you on the best truck in existence.

Maybe this will be fixed when the 300 comes out (please God let there be a 300!)

 

[sigmundsauer]

jglc2013,

I've studied many pics of the 2013+ TLCs and they all seem to show more sag of the rear suspension, esp. driver's side than the 2008-2011 TLCs.

The good news is that the dealership finally contacted me again. It seems the delay was due to the service director investing a fair amount of his time working with Toyota over possible solutions. Bottom line, the dealer is ordering the special KDSS tools and pressurizer machine to diagnose and hopefully correct the issue. They will get my TLC in after the holidays and bring down the regional tech to help with the procedure. They will try to bleed the system first to see if there's any air in it.

I asked that they confirm with a 200 series authority from Toyota if there is indeed any difference in specification from the 2013+ series compared to the previous gen 200 before proceeding.

Other than the annoying lopsided suspension, I am mostly concerned about the reduced ground clearance and how much more the suspension will sage with full payload. Normal 200s have a forward rake due to the higher suspension in the rear to handle the payload. However my 2013 is nearly level from front to rear, with a little more rise on the passenger side.

Tim

 

[bjowett]

Spring and shocks were changed for the 2013 model year. To my eyes, the 2013+ looks to sit higher in the front. The pump to charge/change the oil in the KDSS system is not a cheap piece of kit (from Toyota anyway), so the dealer appears to be fairly serious about solving your issue.

 

[arich]

I had my entire KDSS main valve replaced under warranty as the shutter valves were rusted frozen.

Of course they blamed it on the new shocks but I asked them to balance the KDSS at my cost and of course they could not. $3000 job!! I didn't get a Christmas card from them this year!

 

[bigandtall]

Spring and shocks were changed for the 2013 model year. To my eyes, the 2013+ looks to sit higher in the front.

Interesting. I did not realize this. I would like to know the specification differences if anyone knows.

 

[sigmundsauer]

Spring and shocks were changed for the 2013 model year. To my eyes, the 2013+ looks to sit higher in the front. The pump to charge/change the oil in the KDSS system is not a cheap piece of kit (from Toyota anyway), so the dealer appears to be fairly serious about solving your issue.

Interesting. If true, this may explain the slight difference in ride quality between my 2008 and the 2013. It may also explain the slight difference in payload rating (1230# vs 1295#).

Would it be conceivable that a change in springs and shocks could account for the KDSS being lopsided? The dealer tells me that there were no changes to the KDSS system specifications between first-yen 200s and the current 2013+ models.

Tim

 

[skhochay]

I have 3 rigs LX450, TLC100 and TLC200 and all 3 are 1/2" to 1" depends on the parking angle will sag on right or left - nothing wrong with that, all big rigs do that go and measure new rigs on the lot - I notice sagging too. if you really paranoid about it and losing sleep over it - install airbags on the rear then you can adjust your "sagi bottom" I did in my TLC100, but if you want to fix the problem with springs you need to install progressive spring on the rear I did for my LX450 . I did not do anything on my TLC200 the sag in only 1/4".

 

[sigmundsauer]

Gents, I'm pleased to report that the dealer took the high road the whole way thru. What I perceived to be an initial delay was really them seriously researching the issue with Toyota. They purchased the diagnostic tool and high pressure pump, brought in a regional technician, and diagnosed the KDSS as fully being in spec. Under heavy advisement by Toyota to not depressurize the KDSS, they performed the leveling procedure that mostly corrected the problem. There is still some visible sag but it's nominal.

Yes, the sag did bother me. As much as an 1.5" measured low on driver side compared to passenger was an eye sore for such a fine vehicle and it concerned me that it would affect drivability under a variety of max load conditions. Regardless, I'm very pleased they took it seriously.

I will also be reinforcing the rear suspension with some firestone airbags in the near future to compensate for the additional tongue weight from towing our trailer plus cargo. Any tips on this procedure would be appreciated, for those who know or who have done it themselves.

Thank you.

Tim

 

[r3run33]

Thanks for posting the fix; many dealerships are still learning the KDSS system and usually only have one dedicated person doing the work

 

[SWUtah]

Gents, I'm pleased to report that the dealer took the high road the whole way thru. What I perceived to be an initial delay was really them seriously researching the issue with Toyota. They purchased the diagnostic tool and high pressure pump, brought in a regional technician, and diagnosed the KDSS as fully being in spec. Under heavy advisement by Toyota to not depressurize the KDSS, they performed the leveling procedure that mostly corrected the problem. There is still some visible sag but it's nominal.

Yes, the sag did bother me. As much as an 1.5" measured low on driver side compared to passenger was an eye sore for such a fine vehicle and it concerned me that it would affect drivability under a variety of max load conditions. Regardless, I'm very pleased they took it seriously.

I will also be reinforcing the rear suspension with some firestone airbags in the near future to compensate for the additional tongue weight from towing our trailer plus cargo. Any tips on this procedure would be appreciated, for those who know or who have done it themselves.

Thank you.

Tim

Tim, did they level it or is it still 1.5 inches off/ low on the drivers side? Wonder why they did not want to depressurize the KDSS, I think I've read where members have depressurized or had dealers depressurize their KDSS.

 

[sigmundsauer]

SWUtah,

The dealer simply leveled the vehicle by opening up the KDSS breather valves without depressurizing. It's mostly level now. 1.5" low on driver's side was the worst I saw it, but it tended to average about 1" low. It's about .25"-.5" low now. Enough to not really bother me.

The dealership was advised to not depressurize the system if they could avoid it. Evidently there are reasons for this advice, of which I really don't know about.

Tim

 

[gaijin]

SWUtah,

The dealer simply leveled the vehicle by opening up the KDSS breather valves without depressurizing. It's mostly level now. 1.5" low on driver's side was the worst I saw it, but it tended to average about 1" low. It's about .25"-.5" low now. Enough to not really bother me.

The dealership was advised to not depressurize the system if they could avoid it. Evidently there are reasons for this advice, of which I really don't know about.

Tim

Tim,

I have a very slight lean to the driver's side on my 2013 - about 0.5" (12.5mm). I have not felt it is serious enough to bring to the dealer's attention, but I have investigated the leveling procedure and downloaded the necessary pages from the Service Manual to do it - it looks very simple, it's just a matter of me designating the time for it and getting it done.

The spec for height difference side to side is 15mm - a little more than 0.5", so it sounds like you are in spec, at least.

From my understanding, the KDSS system is pressurized to something over 600psi! This makes depressurizing/repressurizing the system a tricky and potentially dangerous proposition. I am not surprised the technical chain of command at Toyota wanted to avoid doing this. Also, the only two procedures that seemed relevant concerning the KDSS were the leveling procedure - simple and straightforward - and bleeding the KDSS system. The bleeding procedure is similar - albeit at much higher pressures - to bleeding a brake system, and is done for similar reasons - air in the system. The sysmptoms for air in the KDSS system have nothing to do with the vehicle being level when at rest.

If your 200 is still slightly tilted after having driven around for a couple thousand miles, it might be a good idea to have the dealer try the leveling procedure again. It is my impression that leveling it, riding around for awhile, and leveling it again will continue to gradually improve the situation. It sounds to me like the system does not immediately, or easily, come to equilibrium, so a couple of leveling procedures might be needed.

HTH

 

[Overlake]

Overblown. .5" "lean"?

Lol