turbo vs supercharger for 2B diesel, lots of mud and crossing creeks

[Tin Tin]

supercharger for 2B diesel, is it good for lots of mud and crossing creeks

Hi Guys,

Im in a part of the amazon jungle ,Suriname.
We mud mostly in the jungle.
I want to increase power and look at turbos and superchargers.

I heard turbos can crack when getting water onto them
and I really dont like the turbo kicking in.

In a 2B 3B mods etc thread I saw a nice M62 setup.

Main question~°
I Wonder how it works in mud.
with the belt etc
And snokeled in water.
and high rpms on the highway
how much power will I gain?
anything is welcome, price, RELiABILITY, models, intercollers, pictures etc

have a good day.

Martin

 

[roscoFJ73]

Hi Guys,

Im in a part of the amazon jungle ,Suriname.
We mud mostly in the jungle.
I want to increase power and look at turbos and superchargers.

I heard turbos can crack when getting water onto them
and I really dont like the turbo kicking in.

In a 2B 3B mods etc thread I saw a nice M62 setup.

Main question~°

I Wonder how it works in mud with the belt etc

I cant see that being a problem if the belts tight enough.

And snokeled in water.

Ive never thought about it but I doubt it will be as hot as a turbo

and high rpms on the highway

Superchargers tend to work better at the other end of the scale where a B diesel could really use it.
They have a fairly flat torque curve and you get instant power from idle.

how much power will I gain?

Because they work on pulleys you can overdrive it as fast as you want but the 1HZ is best at driving the SC at 3 times the engine speed

anything is welcome, price, RELiABILITY, models, intercollers, pictures etc

You are on your own here but something off a 2 litre petrol engine would be a good start.
There is lots of cheap mercedes and Toyota superchargers in that range.
Eaton are probably the worlds biggest manufacturer.
Have a look whats on ebay for pricing
You would have to make your own kit.
There is someone on this forum that is contemplating using a Merc SC on his 1PZ.
Maybe he will pop in and share something


have a good day.

Martin

 

[Hulsty]

If you get stock in mud and the engine bay gets filled with mud you can have problems with the belts chewing out. IMO a well matched turbo would be good and efficient, I have never had problems with water/mud etc damaging the housing, they would have to be RED HOT then dumped straight into water to cause damage. Factory style turbo is highmount too.

 

[blis]

I would personally go for well matched turbo instead of supercharger, mostly becouse of efficiency and easier servicing (you're more likely to find replacement turbo than supercharger in case of breakdown)... Also supercharger draws constant power from engine which can in low rpm's be rather noticable (from the top of my head, supercharger needs somewhere around 10-15kw power to produce a decent boost)...

 

[Redd]

what engine do you have?

im prob gonna fit an eaton m62 supercharger, as fitted to the mercedes C230 C320 SLK230 and CLK230.
this supercharger should be the right size for a 3.5 diesel. (I have a 1pz)

the reason i like the idea is that i can turn it on and off.
the engine will breathe normally and be unstressed most of the time. the eaton S/C's in the mercs above have an electric clutch fitted, so it can be turned on and off at the flick of a switch.

Eaton M62 magnetic clutch - YouTube

the guy below has a very interesting setup. for some reason he had an m62 without the clutch, so he modified an aircon clutch to do the same job.

Alfa Romeo GTV6 with Eaton M62 supercharger - YouTube

i like his custom pulley at 02.53. since i removed my aircon i can use the pully groove on the front of the crank. this bears thinking about, a supercharger will place extra stress on the nose of the crank pulley- i read some horror stories about it caving in.

i think an sc and some exhaust headers is what ill end up doing.

 

[Redd]

actually if anyone can explain to me where he got this thing, id appreciate it.
its what he uses to select between the airpaths. he made most the rest of the bits from carbon fiber, i wonder is this a custom piece too

 

[Tin Tin]

its 3.2 litre.

im now wundering where im gonna mount it.
ill put the power steering more down I think.

the m62 should be great.
a buddy of mine has a sc of a toyota mark 2.
maybe he wants to sell it.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Also supercharger draws constant power from engine which can in low rpm's be rather noticable (from the top of my head, supercharger needs somewhere around 10-15kw power to produce a decent boost)...

It wouldnt be noticable at all,as the amount of power it consumes is relevant to the speed of the engine.
I dont know what it would be on a 2B ,but a 1HZ would be using 3kw at 1000rpm

 

[Dougal]

It wouldnt be noticable at all,as the amount of power it consumes is relevant to the speed of the engine.
I dont know what it would be on a 2B ,but a 1HZ would be using 3kw at 1000rpm

3kw to a supercharger at 1000rpm on a 1HZ would only provide 6psi boost.

That 6psi boost would provide a maximum of 40Nm extra torque, but to produce that 6psi would suck 29Nm. 3kw at 1000rpm is 29Nm.
Leaving you with a net benefit of 11Nm torque and 1.15kw.

Waste of space really.

 

[roscoFJ73]

3kw to a supercharger at 1000rpm on a 1HZ would only provide 6psi boost.

That 6psi boost would provide a maximum of 40Nm extra torque, but to produce that 6psi would suck 29Nm. 3kw at 1000rpm is 29Nm.
Leaving you with a net benefit of 11Nm torque and 1.15kw.

Waste of space really.

Where are you getting your figures from? At 1000 rpm,its 150 above idle,its about what I use to climb my driveway in reverse

 

[Dougal]

Where are you getting your figures from? At 1000 rpm,its 150 above idle,its about what I use to climb my driveway in reverse

Derived from the physical rules which dictate our universe.

Power = pressure x flowrate.
Power to drive a supercharger = pressure x flowrate x supercharger efficiency.
Put 3kw into a supercharger on a 4.2 litre engine at 1000rpm and you get 6psi boost which results in 20% higher air density
That 20% higher air density can deliver 20% more power and torque.
I used 200Nm for 1000rpm torque as published torque curves don't go that low.
20% higher than 200Nm is 240Nm.

To deliver 3kw at 1000rpm requires 29kw of crankshaft torque.

 

[roscoFJ73]

I was talking about the supercharger using 3kw at 1000engine rpm ,not producing it.(it could actually be less)

What efficiency % are you using in your formula?

 

[Dougal]

I was talking about the supercharger using 3kw at 1000engine rpm ,not producing it.(it could actually be less)

Those calculations are for the supercharger using 3kw of crank power at 1000rpm engine.

The net gain (after powering the supercharger) is 11Nm and 1.15kw at 1000rpm.

What efficiency % are you using in your formula?

60%. Which fits very well with the manufacturers published charts.

 

[Redd]

Dougal hi there, enjoy reading your posts, though the math means nothing to me. im not that way inclined.

same regarding the math above im afraid. - if its pointless, no gains to be made, why does anyone supercharge engines?

 

[Dougal]

Dougal hi there, enjoy reading your posts, though the math means nothing to me. im not that way inclined.

same regarding the math above im afraid. - if its pointless, no gains to be made, why does anyone supercharge engines?

That's my point, virtually no-one does supercharge diesels. It's only a few people playing around on youtube. Apparently Volvo make a twin-charged marine diesel, it uses the supercharger to wake up the turbo and then the supercharger clutches out.

Supercharged petrols are also an endangered species. VW/Audi do a twincharged 1.4 petrol engine. This is similar to the volvo marine diesel in that the supercharger is only there to fill the gap before the larger turbo kicks in.
I'm currently in the market for a VAG car, but that engine choice does nothing for me. I'll be buying a turbo diesel.

There are gains to be made, they are just smaller than the power/torque gains turbocharging makes and come with some horrible downsides.

 

[Redd]

merc have the kompressor line of cars, and bmw fit them to the mini
i was sold when i seen the kompressor badge lol, clever marketing i guess.

what are the horrible downsides? from an installation/running point of view it seems easier / cleaner / less dirty / hot.
the sound is cool. egt's should be lower? (not 100% on that)

and the option to run without it on at all seems like a plus from a longevity point of view, and also when paying (through the nose) at the pump

i guess if your just after boost, then it doesnt make sense compared to a turbo

 

[Dougal]

merc have the kompressor line of cars, and bmw fit them to the mini
i was sold when i seem the Kompressor badge lol, clever marketing i guess.

what are the horrible downsides? from an installation/running point of view it seems cleaner / less dirty / hot.
the sound is cool. egt's should be lower? (not 100% on that)

and the option to run without it on at all seems like a plus from a longevity point of view, and also when paying (through the nose) at the pump

The mini's aren't supercharged anymore, they changed to turbochargers. The Merc Kompressors are some of the few remaining supercharged cars.

On a petrol engine it's not as bad because they spend most of their life off boost, so when on boost and chewing fuel it doesn't matter as much because it's only a fraction of the time.
But diesels spend most of their life on boost. So anything which creates boost in a way that sucks fuel (like superchargers do) is extremely bad.

A properly sized turbocharger on a diesel increases it's efficiency by up to 20% even at part load. So you are using less fuel for the crank power.
A supercharger has two modes, clutched out it's a naturally aspirated engine (less efficient that turbocharged), clutched in it's putting a big drag on the crank and still not increasing engine efficiency.

At the same boost level supercharged EGT's are higher than turbocharged. At the same power level it's even better for turbochargers. At cruise a turbocharger scales it's speed and boost to match what is needed.
A turbocharger can have a life as long as the engine it's bolted to.

In a nutshell, there is no diesel performance, economy or longevity point where a supercharger is better than a turbocharger.

 

[goldchaser]

Interesting posts.
So the power loss you see when your Air Con system is running would be something similar to what a supercharger would use to make boost?

 

[Redd]

Cheers Dougal, for explaining it in simple terms.

do you think a turbo fitted to replace the stock turbo on the SD33t (3.3 diesel) would be suitable for the 1pz (3.5)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180800636...AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_2042wt_838

 

[Dougal]

Interesting posts.
So the power loss you see when your Air Con system is running would be something similar to what a supercharger would use to make boost?

Yes, except it'll draw up to 10x as much power from the crank. A/C compressors pull about 3kw and clutch in/out by themselves as needed. A supercharger at 3000rpm providing 15psi boost to a 1HD would suck 27kw from the crank.
At 4000rpm that would be 35kw from the crank.

Cheers Dougal, for explaining it in simple terms.

do you think a turbo fitted to replace the stock turbo on the SD33t (3.3 diesel) would be suitable for the 1pz (3.5)

GARRETT GT2860RS BALL BEARING TURBO INTERNAL WASTEGATE HOUSING CORE 250-320HP | eBay

That's the disco potato turbo which is sized for a high rpm and low boost petrol engine. a GT2560R is a better turbo.