2F + 3F-E = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40

matt.mcinnes · 01-31-07, 03:42 PM

Well after reading a few threads on grafting a 3FE head on to a 2F block we have decided to go the whole 9 yards and return the punt for a touch down and build an injected turbo water inter cooled 2F.

I already have a worked 2F that rocks that's been rebuilt and balanced, tomorrow I pick up a 3F-E complete for $200us that was pulled out and replaced by a 350 in an 80 series . It was running when removed too.

My 2F, the last dyno run. So we know where we started.

First up will be to remove the 3F-E head and have it worked, ported and polished plus what ever else it need to suit the turbo.

So for those interested watch this space for a detailed write up.

TEC SPECS COVERED SO FAR IN THIS THREAD. I will up date this as the thread progresses in RED links in ORANGE

3F-E Head ported polished larger flat faced Ferrea valves and flow tested before and after.

Con Rods for a Jaguar 4.2 straight 6 will replace the stock 2F rods

Pistons JE Custom

ECU Wolf V500

Turbo is a by Garrett GT30 82R

Valve Springs by Crow Part No4832

ARP Con Rod Bolts Part No 154-6001

Wastegate Tial 44mm

Home Brew Intercooler Air to water

Jet Hot Ceramic Coatings

TLF Performance Parts 550cc Injectors

Davies Craig Electric Water Pump for the Intercooler

READING
New Features compares the 60 series 2F with the 62 3FE

my64fj40 · 01-31-07, 03:45 PM

Should be interesting.

Lookin forward to it.

John Smith · 01-31-07, 03:48 PM

Could you explain what that means for those of us who are dyno and metric challenged? I read it to say that peak torque is reached around 3000 rpm then levels off? I look forward to seeing this build up thread.

lovetoski · 01-31-07, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Smith

Could you explain what that means for those of us who are dyno and metric challenged? I read it to say that peak torque is reached around 3000 rpm then levels off? I look forward to seeing this build up thread.

Peak Torque @ ~2000, peak HP @~3000-3500. (Lines are labeled P and T).

Mace · 01-31-07, 03:57 PM

So you max out the RWHP at 100 (75 KW) correct?

With 368 Ft lbs of torque? (500 nm)

interesting..
I hit 140 hp and 220 ft lbs in my rig.

How did the torque numbers get so high without much increase in HP?

Mark W · 01-31-07, 03:58 PM

I'm assuming from the torque/power curves that this must have been with a stock camshaft.

Any induction, exhaust or compression changes to that engine?

What sort of loss are you attributing to the drivetrain (what sort of flywheel numbers do you think these approximate)?

matt.mcinnes · 01-31-07, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovetoski

Peak Torque @ ~2000, peak HP @~3000-3500. (Lines are labeled P and T).

Red is Gas Blue is LPG as for the Metric coversions sorry I'm imperially challenged

numtel · 01-31-07, 04:05 PM

Wow you got more power on propane? I'm asssuming you must have adjusted the timing when switching right? Is there anything else you did?

I run gas and lpg in my cruiser too but I don't think I have a power increase with the propane.

matt.mcinnes · 01-31-07, 04:09 PM

The original 2F was built and cammed for low down torque on LPG the head was skimmed and a few other bits. So it's tuned for LPG

This engine was built for torque not hp to turn 35's. Diffs are 4.556 too.

30 spline Longfileds in the front as we snapped a stock CV every trip out.

Mark W · 01-31-07, 04:19 PM

I've got a 2FE-T cooking on a back burner myself. Down the line a bit, so I'll be watching your build with interest.

Mark...

matt.mcinnes · 01-31-07, 06:19 PM

First the engine builder wants the 3F-E head which is stock to calculate the volume and compression from there he will if needed open it up.
It seem that to get more out of the turbo it may be better to de-compress the engine, rather than incress it. All this can be done while its been ported and polished.

Big learnig curve for myself here too.

New forged pistons will be needed as well as con rods. Crank I'm told is not an issue cam has not yet been discussed.

Now where is my credit card

I'll take pics of the 3F-E head before it goes to be machined and post up a full list of the modifications and after pics.

Mark W · 01-31-07, 06:39 PM

I don't think you will need any change to the connecting rods. Rod bolts are the weak link.

Nominal compression on a 2FE *should* work out right at 9.0:1 A little on the high side for a turbo, but it you're gonna be running an intercooler it should be okay.

Mark...

matt.mcinnes · 01-31-07, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark W

I don't think you will need any change to the connecting rods. Rod bolts are the weak link.

Nominal compression on a 2FE *should* work out right at 9.0:1 A little on the high side for a turbo, but it you're gonna be running an intercooler it should be okay.

Mark...

Just off the phone with the turbo people they would like the engine to make around 8.0:1 so that's sorted if need be the head will be opened up to achive the required compression.

Also to run boost up to 20 psi I should have the the head or block O'ringed

I'm learning real fast.

Mark W · 01-31-07, 08:52 PM

Yeah I was assuming a max boost of 15 psi. I'd be happy as hell to make that work.

Mark...

Mace · 01-31-07, 10:32 PM

20 psi is nuts..

stick with 12-15 psi boost...

at 2000' elevation with a 8:1 compression ratio under 15 lbs of boost you will have an approximate effective compression ratio of almost 16:1

At 20 psi you are lookin at about 19:1...

Mark W · 01-31-07, 10:43 PM

But the concerns of a supercharge making cylinder pressure in conjunction with the pressure made by the compression of the piston moving up are not the same as an equal amount of presure made by compression alone. And an intercooler reduces the equvilency even further.Cylinder temps and detonation is not the same because of the amount of heat actually generated outside of the combustion chgamber and (in the case of an intercooler) shed there too. Not to say that even 12psi of boost is not a LOT.

Mark...

Klunky Chris · 01-31-07, 11:10 PM

yea.... my 87 supra turbo is running at what..... 6-8PSI?!?

matt.mcinnes · 02-01-07, 12:17 AM

Without adding the O'rings to the head or block the turbo people here only recommend a max of 10psi. It's seems the O'rings aid the cylinder head gasket so a higher boost can be run.

Like I said before I'm learning as I go. but for myself I think 15psi max would be the go rather than pushing the limits too far.

Other issues I have yet to address are fuel pumps and gas convertors to cope.

Mark W · 02-01-07, 12:43 AM

Considering that 15 psi will basically double your power... Yeah, I'd say that's plenty and I'd be more than happy to reach that level. (Don't forget that there's a lot of room to boost the power of a 2F BEFORE you get stated with boost!)

Before anyone lurking this thread jumps in with smarmy comments about polishing a turd or the old "put a smallblock in it"... Same reason mountains get climbed... Because it's there.

Mark...

Mark...

matt.mcinnes · 02-01-07, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark W

Considering that 15 psi will basically double your power... Yeah, I'd say that's plenty and I'd be more than happy to reach that level. (Don't forget that there's a lot of room to boost the power of a 2F BEFORE you get stated with boost!)

Before anyone lurking this thread jumps in with smarmy comments about polishing a turd or the old "put a smallblock in it"... Same reason mountains get climbed... Because it's there.

Mark...

Mark...

I get all the V8 comments and not a cat in hells chance, the look on someones face with an all powerful V8, been beaten at comp by a 2F is PRICELESS

Some of you may have seen this before its posted here and there on this forum. Me at play on my AT's

http://scotto.3rdrock4x4.com/MattMc40.mov

As you can see My current 2F turns 35's nicely

my64fj40 · 02-01-07, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

I get all the V8 comments and not a cat in hells chance, the look on someones face with an all powerful V8, been beaten at comp by a 2F is PRICELESS

I imagine all this work isn't "Priceless" though.

So how much $ do ya have in it or gonna have in it??

matt.mcinnes · 02-01-07, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by my64fj40

I imagine all this work isn't "Priceless" though.

So how much $ do ya have in it or gonna have in it??

Turbo, intercooler, ECU, custom maifold $5,500us
Drop forged pistions $2,000us
3F-E $231us
Work to the head $2000us
Always add 20% sunderies

Spent so far on the truck just under 40,000us including all maintenance from competing. writing off rebuilding, fixing breaking and improving.

It's a labour of love and I have two ex wifes so the sig below is true to form

Mace · 02-01-07, 08:43 AM

I am still not convinced on an intercooler. Seems water injection would be better and easier.

I max out at 12 psi on my turbo...

matt.mcinnes · 02-01-07, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace

01-31-07, 03:42 PM	#1
matt.mcinnes LIFER with a 2F-ETI Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,742	2F + 3FE = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40 Well after reading a few threads on grafting a 3FE head on to a 2F block we have decided to go the whole 9 yards and return the punt for a touch down and build an injected turbo water inter cooled 2F. I already have a worked 2F that rocks that's been rebuilt and balanced, tomorrow I pick up a 3F-E complete for $200us that was pulled out and replaced by a 350 in an 80 series . It was running when removed too. My 2F, the last dyno run. So we know where we started. First up will be to remove the 3F-E head and have it worked, ported and polished plus what ever else it need to suit the turbo. So for those interested watch this space for a detailed write up. TEC SPECS COVERED SO FAR IN THIS THREAD. I will up date this as the thread progresses in RED links in ORANGE 3F-E Head ported polished larger flat faced Ferrea valves and flow tested before and after. Con Rods for a Jaguar 4.2 straight 6 will replace the stock 2F rods Pistons JE Custom ECU Wolf V500 Turbo is a by Garrett GT30 82R Valve Springs by Crow Part No4832 ARP Con Rod Bolts Part No 154-6001 Wastegate Tial 44mm Home Brew Intercooler Air to water Jet Hot Ceramic Coatings TLF Performance Parts 550cc Injectors Davies Craig Electric Water Pump for the Intercooler READING New Features compares the 60 series 2F with the 62 3FE __________________ If the wife's not complaining your not spending enought time with your 40! 2F+3FE+T+I-3F=2F-ETI THE MULE @ 400hp max Est @ 15PSI DYNO'd at 8PSI 155rwkw/208rwhp and 650Nm Links Sponsored by OZZIEWEBHOSTING Mac's Space Last edited by matt.mcinnes; 12-17-07 at 12:39 AM.

01-31-07, 03:45 PM	#2
my64fj40 IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Corpus Christi, Texas Posts: 1,600	Should be interesting. Lookin forward to it. __________________ "Jeep, it's what's for dinner." 1964 FJ40- 406 SBC - TH350- HFS 4in- Detroit in rear- 35s Build Thread: http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.p...87#post1089087 Build web-site: (Still in progress) http://my64fj40.bravehost.com/

01-31-07, 03:48 PM	#3
John Smith In the garage Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Maryland TLCA# 9074 Posts: 1,606	Could you explain what that means for those of us who are dyno and metric challenged? I read it to say that peak torque is reached around 3000 rpm then levels off? I look forward to seeing this build up thread. __________________ 79 FJ40 & 78 FJ55 http://users.starpower.net/johnsmith <- Detailed ToyBox install instructions Please help save the Upper Tellico OHV area, Donate to the Rescue Tellico Fund http://www.sfwda.org/trails/tellico/donate.html

01-31-07, 03:57 PM	#5
Mace what he said Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 10,767	So you max out the RWHP at 100 (75 KW) correct? With 368 Ft lbs of torque? (500 nm) interesting.. I hit 140 hp and 220 ft lbs in my rig. How did the torque numbers get so high without much increase in HP? __________________ I am kinda gay....... My Myspace http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=75712409 "Mary Poppins: In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun and - SNAP - the job's a game."

01-31-07, 04:05 PM	#8
numtel IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chico, CA TLCA# 14946 Posts: 398	Wow you got more power on propane? I'm asssuming you must have adjusted the timing when switching right? Is there anything else you did? I run gas and lpg in my cruiser too but I don't think I have a power increase with the propane. __________________ 99" FJ40 - Trailbusters 4x4 - Toyota Rocks TLCA Chapter - Bent & Twisted Forum

01-31-07, 03:58 PM	#6
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,489	I'm assuming from the torque/power curves that this must have been with a stock camshaft. Any induction, exhaust or compression changes to that engine? What sort of loss are you attributing to the drivetrain (what sort of flywheel numbers do you think these approximate)?

01-31-07, 04:09 PM	#9
matt.mcinnes LIFER with a 2F-ETI Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,742	The original 2F was built and cammed for low down torque on LPG the head was skimmed and a few other bits. So it's tuned for LPG This engine was built for torque not hp to turn 35's. Diffs are 4.556 too. 30 spline Longfileds in the front as we snapped a stock CV every trip out. __________________ If the wife's not complaining your not spending enought time with your 40! 2F+3FE+T+I-3F=2F-ETI THE MULE @ 400hp max Est @ 15PSI DYNO'd at 8PSI 155rwkw/208rwhp and 650Nm Links Sponsored by OZZIEWEBHOSTING Mac's Space Last edited by matt.mcinnes; 08-18-07 at 11:34 PM.

01-31-07, 04:19 PM	#10
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,489	I've got a 2FE-T cooking on a back burner myself. Down the line a bit, so I'll be watching your build with interest. Mark...

01-31-07, 06:19 PM	#11
matt.mcinnes LIFER with a 2F-ETI Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,742	First the engine builder wants the 3F-E head which is stock to calculate the volume and compression from there he will if needed open it up. It seem that to get more out of the turbo it may be better to de-compress the engine, rather than incress it. All this can be done while its been ported and polished. Big learnig curve for myself here too. New forged pistons will be needed as well as con rods. Crank I'm told is not an issue cam has not yet been discussed. Now where is my credit card I'll take pics of the 3F-E head before it goes to be machined and post up a full list of the modifications and after pics. __________________ If the wife's not complaining your not spending enought time with your 40! 2F+3FE+T+I-3F=2F-ETI THE MULE @ 400hp max Est @ 15PSI DYNO'd at 8PSI 155rwkw/208rwhp and 650Nm Links Sponsored by OZZIEWEBHOSTING Mac's Space

01-31-07, 06:39 PM	#12
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,489	I don't think you will need any change to the connecting rods. Rod bolts are the weak link. Nominal compression on a 2FE should work out right at 9.0:1 A little on the high side for a turbo, but it you're gonna be running an intercooler it should be okay. Mark...

01-31-07, 08:52 PM	#14
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,489	Yeah I was assuming a max boost of 15 psi. I'd be happy as hell to make that work. Mark...

01-31-07, 10:32 PM	#15
Mace what he said Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 10,767	20 psi is nuts.. stick with 12-15 psi boost... at 2000' elevation with a 8:1 compression ratio under 15 lbs of boost you will have an approximate effective compression ratio of almost 16:1 At 20 psi you are lookin at about 19:1... __________________ I am kinda gay....... My Myspace http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=75712409 "Mary Poppins: In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun and - SNAP - the job's a game."

01-31-07, 10:43 PM	#16
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,489	But the concerns of a supercharge making cylinder pressure in conjunction with the pressure made by the compression of the piston moving up are not the same as an equal amount of presure made by compression alone. And an intercooler reduces the equvilency even further.Cylinder temps and detonation is not the same because of the amount of heat actually generated outside of the combustion chgamber and (in the case of an intercooler) shed there too. Not to say that even 12psi of boost is not a LOT. Mark...

01-31-07, 11:10 PM	#17
Klunky Chris Jr. Spaceman Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Shippensburg PA TLCA# 4821 Posts: 1,075	yea.... my 87 supra turbo is running at what..... 6-8PSI?!? __________________ Chris Basehore TLCA# 4821 74 FJ40- built F, knuckles/brakes from a FJ60, Longs, 4" Pinnacle sucks big wads, mini PS, shite paint 93FZJ80 "klunky"- E-lockers, home built sliders, IronPigOffRoad bumper, CDL switch, D-less, mucho maintenance www.ILUVROCKS.com

02-01-07, 12:17 AM	#18
matt.mcinnes LIFER with a 2F-ETI Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,742	Without adding the O'rings to the head or block the turbo people here only recommend a max of 10psi. It's seems the O'rings aid the cylinder head gasket so a higher boost can be run. Like I said before I'm learning as I go. but for myself I think 15psi max would be the go rather than pushing the limits too far. Other issues I have yet to address are fuel pumps and gas convertors to cope. __________________ If the wife's not complaining your not spending enought time with your 40! 2F+3FE+T+I-3F=2F-ETI THE MULE @ 400hp max Est @ 15PSI DYNO'd at 8PSI 155rwkw/208rwhp and 650Nm Links Sponsored by OZZIEWEBHOSTING Mac's Space Last edited by matt.mcinnes; 02-01-07 at 07:00 AM.

02-01-07, 12:43 AM	#19
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,489	Considering that 15 psi will basically double your power... Yeah, I'd say that's plenty and I'd be more than happy to reach that level. (Don't forget that there's a lot of room to boost the power of a 2F BEFORE you get stated with boost!) Before anyone lurking this thread jumps in with smarmy comments about polishing a turd or the old "put a smallblock in it"... Same reason mountains get climbed... Because it's there. Mark... Mark...

02-01-07, 08:43 AM	#23
Mace what he said Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 10,767	I am still not convinced on an intercooler. Seems water injection would be better and easier. I max out at 12 psi on my turbo... __________________ I am kinda gay....... My Myspace http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=75712409 "Mary Poppins: In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun and - SNAP - the job's a game."