Any info on Toyota giving us a diesel for the new 200 series and if so when?
Diesel engine for 200 series in USA
- Thread starter SWUtah
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Don't hold your breath.....
If I had to guess, I'd say never. Unless you can get one from oversees legally.
- Thread starter
- #3
With good mpg now being important that is not smart of Toyota. BMW,MB,Volkswagon,etc now have diesel choices for their SUV's
Audi too.
Do the math:
Petrol Nat'l Avg (7/13/09): $2.529
Fuel economy of 5.7L (combined highway/city): 15 mpg
Diesel Nat'l Avg (7/13/09): $2.574
Fuel economy of 4.5L diesel: 10 L per 100km = 23.5 mpg
Fuel economy of 5.7L (combined highway/city): 15 mpg
Diesel Nat'l Avg (7/13/09): $2.574
Fuel economy of 4.5L diesel: 10 L per 100km = 23.5 mpg
If you drive 12,000 miles a year (Nat'l avg):
Petrol cost per year: ($2.529 / 15) * 12,000 miles = $2023.20
Diesel cost per year: ($2.574 / 23.5) * 12,000 miles = $1314.38
Cost difference per year: $2023.20 - $1314.38 = $708.82
Diesel cost per year: ($2.574 / 23.5) * 12,000 miles = $1314.38
Cost difference per year: $2023.20 - $1314.38 = $708.82
If the diesel engine costs $5000 more:
Payoff years: $708.82 / $5000 = 7.05 years
You would have to own the vehicle for 7 years before you would even BEGIN to see the cost savings.
See any flaws with this logic? I see one: $5K is cheep for a diesel upgrade.
So where's the savings?
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SHERMAN FJ62
Charlestons' King of Cruisers
Good logic but you do not take into account if you do a lot of towing or driving. Diesel would be a better choice
Not necessarily...the 5.7 petrol is a beast!
What are the HP and torque numbers for the diesel?
I'd love to see an overlay graph of the two engines dyno'ed.
The advantage of diesel for me is the ease of ability to enhance their performance. Pushing a cummings to 900HP is fairly easy -- all bolt on mods and an edge programmer.
Toyota has their ECU codes so locked down I don't foresee this happening. If I could take the 4.5L twin turbo diesel and boost its performance by increasing the boost pressure among other things with a simple Edge programmer (or the like), I'd be all over it.
Until then, though, petrol is good enough. Now all I want is an exhaust system to get this beastly engine back into the octave it should be!
I'd love to see an overlay graph of the two engines dyno'ed.
The advantage of diesel for me is the ease of ability to enhance their performance. Pushing a cummings to 900HP is fairly easy -- all bolt on mods and an edge programmer.
Toyota has their ECU codes so locked down I don't foresee this happening. If I could take the 4.5L twin turbo diesel and boost its performance by increasing the boost pressure among other things with a simple Edge programmer (or the like), I'd be all over it.
Until then, though, petrol is good enough. Now all I want is an exhaust system to get this beastly engine back into the octave it should be!
Oh, and SWUtah, if I'm ever in Utah, I'm going to demand a ride in the Vantage!!! That's one nice car!
Pskhaat
Tourer
I have anecdotal but ever-so-slightly educated reason to believe Toyota USA executives have a bias against diesel. My vote is also never.
Diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol in the UK. Even so, as much as 90+% of medium and large SUV's are bought as diesel and that includes the Audi Q7 and Range Rover and Land Cruiser 90/100/120 and 200. Even the smaller LR Freelander and Rav4. Apart from the convenience of home bunkered fuel and up to 600 miles between re-fuelling, the resale value of a diesel is far higher, higher in some cases than the initial price premium when new. Then there's the low speed torque, the equal refinement and the up-to-18000 miles between oil changes to think about.
Fuel efficiency is just one of the benefits of a diesel. Ability to run it on good alternative fuels, engine lifespan (not with the new ultra-low sulfur s***, unless you add additives), torque, etc.
Engine lifespan should be even better with ultra low sulphur diesel fuel due to less sulphuric acid in the oil and less carbon contamination as well. This has the added benefit of facilitating longer engine oil change intervals along with other service needs. Whether you take advantage of this feature in oil change mad USA is another matter. 
100% incorrect. We are talking about FUEL, not motor oil. The new s*** has such low lubricity, diesel motors won't be lasting as long as their gas counterparts, unless you add lubricants.Engine lifespan should be even better with ultra low sulphur diesel fuel due to less sulphuric acid in the oil and less carbon contamination as well. This has the added benefit of facilitating longer engine oil change intervals along with other service needs. Whether you take advantage of this feature in oil change mad USA is another matter.
If you have fuel in your oil, it isn't the vehicle's longevity you need to worry about...
I made no mention of fuel in the oil but if you know anything about diesel engines at all you will know that they need high detergent oils to cope with soot [carbon] and acid contamination. Soot contamination is increased by retarded injection timing [which has been needed pre-addblue] but redesigned ring packs and finer injection at higher pressure counter that. Also countering oil contamination is that ULSD fuel burns cleaner with far lower acidic resedues.
Modern European [and increasingly American and Japanese] CR car engines have computer monitoring of driving style and oil condition combined with very high technology specific oils which allow a variable but very long oil change interval not previously possible with older design diesel engines using high sulphur fuel. You cannot divorce the fuel type from the other design changes or the new lubrication and filtration fitted to these engines. Its a matched package.
What is true that these new high pressure fuel systems work to very low tollerances and are very sensitive to contaminated fuel. The filtration is much finer and down to 5 micron but this might not stop water. Water is lethal and if it gets passed the filter it will certainly blow an injector tip off and into the combustion chambre with catastrophic consequences. If you are in an area that has dodgy fuel storage then it is advisable to fit a seperate agglomerator pre-filter with a warning light system.
That ULSD fuel has good lubricity, certainly enough for the long term reliability of CR and older fuel systems can be judged from the fact that if petrol is filled into the tank above about 50% concentration then the high pressure CR pump will surely be terminally damaged if run for quite a short time on it. Even older fuel systems could be damaged by such a mixture and it would not make any difference to a high pressure CR system even if the diesel portion was high sulphur fuel, it would still be stuffed.
We've had ultra low sulphur diesel in the UK and most of Europe for nearly a decade now and there are no issues. Indeed common-rail high pressure injection systems are designed to run on this fuel and any problems tend to be when higher sulphur diesel [off-road red diesel] is used in them and John Deere CR medium engines of between 4litres and 8.5 litres seem particularly prone to sticky injectors in these conditions and are recommended to have some Stanadyne or JD additive at every couple of tankfulls of high sulphur fuel.
Diesel engines continue to be built better than ever before and last longer than ever before while having substantially increased service intervals, vastly improved power to weight and power to swept volume ratios.
There are no issues here with using ultra low sulphur diesel fuel. On the contrary there are only advantages apart from slightly lower energy to volume and a higher purchase price due to the de-sulpharisation process.
Pskhaat
Tourer
You need to take into account older engines with ULSD req's. I'm sure there is no correlation between the decrease in effective mileage in new ULSD engines compared to their equivalent and older counterparts.
The only significant, though rare, problems encountered over 8 or more years of ULSD fuel in older engines has been some instances of slight leaks from seals around such things as injector pump throttle lever spindles. I run maybe half a dozen older engines on ULSD and have had no issues whatsoever and I don't know of anybody that has. Some injector pumps always fail and some will inevitably blame ULSD but with no evidence. The Bosch VP 30 and VP40 rotary injector pumps are more prone than some to failure but I can assure you that they are just as prone to fail on off-road vehicles using higher sulphur fuel. Ditto Delphi rotary mechanical pumps which are just as prone to premature failure whatever fuel is used.
Of the older engines running ULSD, I have several that use indirect injection high speed diesels, including a remaining Nissan Terrano and an old Isuzu Trooper 3.1 diesel which has covered 150,000 miles of very short stop-start work with multiple daily cold starts.
Also the 100 series Land Cruiser with 4.2 litre direct injection with electronically controlled rotary pump [similar to BoschVP30] which is now very near 150,000 hard miles and is as good as new. This has used ULSD for most of its life and reduced sulphur fuel for probably its first two years of life.
Of high pressure common rail engines I have, and have had several vehicles [even ran a US built BMWX5 and Mercedes ML270 diesel] including currently a Fiat Panda 1.3 diesel and an Audi Q7.
I also have a couple of CR off-road engines with four valves and all that jazz, one being a relitively new four cylinder Perkins/Caterpillar with Cat fuel system and the other being a Sisu with Bosch fuel system. Both these drink higher sulphur off-road fuel but would run cleaner with ULSD fuel but the dirty stuff is half the price or less.
I should mention that for 18 months or more, UK and most of European ULSD has had up to 5% biodiesel, mostly made from oilseed rape [canolla] in the UK or so I'm told.
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Pskhaat
Tourer
A total diesel neophyte I am (not even owning (or having the recent opportunity to own) such a powerplant myself currently) but I guess I'm confused at the lubrication properties of the sulfur (in historic quantity for that specific reason) and the party line is that no failures to be expected. I'm struggling to find out why that would be.
Akin (but not like) telling me that E10 or E15 has no harm to my E0-designed engine.
Akin (but not like) telling me that E10 or E15 has no harm to my E0-designed engine.
The sulphur does indeed have some lubricating property but it was present in the fuel because it was too expensive to remove it from the fuel [it is naturally occurring] without legislation. The lubricity has been replaced by other additives which do not have the very significant pollutant properties of sulphur both within and without the engine. There are and always have been international and national minimum standards for diesel fuel lubricity which can be met in varying ways.
While it is not necessary to add a fuel additive such as the Stanadyne product to ULSD, it does increase lubricity [whether that is needed or not], raises the cetane level, reduces foaming, lowers the waxing temperature point and cleans the injectors.
In fact the additive is far more useful when used with high sulphur fuel in that its significant practically useful advantage is to clean the injectors of carbon and other deposits, hence its almost mandatory use in John Deere CR engines using off-road fuel which seem to be particularly prone to injector malfunction causing erratic running. [allegedly].
Personally I don't use any fuel additive although I have been known to use some on smokey old engines to get them through the yearly mandatory safety test which includes a diesel exhaust smoke test. For this purpose the additive is poured neat and directly into a fuel filter and used at double strength in a tankful of fuel.
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If they do one thing to keep in mind if you plan on taking the vehicle south of the border is the availability of ULSD. When I looked at this a couple of years ago I concluded that buying a new diesel vehicle in the US was virtually a non-starter for travel outside the developed world. Of course, I am sure there are ways to run on LSD and regular truck diesel etc... but then you may as well just buy something 2 years old and not have to worry about it not to mention the risk of having to deal with the emissions laws.
