Water pump for 74' euro-spec (1 Viewer)

flx

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Hello,

Long time reader of ih8mud but this is my very first public post :)

I own a 1974 FJ40, originally sold in France and in my family since 76, that I begin to restore. I was thinking that being there it could be a good idea to preventively replace the water pump but here start the question of which water pump to install...


First, I have read a lot of threads here about the subject and I know that the common knowledge is the fan clutch only appeared in 77 or so. But I think this is only true for the US. It seems that in Europe fan coupling was started with the build date 01/1974: Water pump for Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40LV - Genuine parts (my 06/74 master catalog says the same thing)
Part number was 16100-60120 for F engine and then superseeded by 16100-61020 and 16100-61021 for 2F engine in vintages 75' and 76'.


Now back to my story... Because my 74' FJ40 was built in 10/73... so it should have came without a fan clutch at this time.
But in 77 my father suffered a major failure of the cooling system while crossing France and had been stranded for many days in a local garage. From his memory it took forever because Toyota sent multiple times the wrong water pump.
From the original bill they finally repaired the radiator, changed the fan, the water pump and thermostat (not sure of what happened back there but that's really a major failure for a 3 years old truck...). The water pump installed was 16100-61020 from the bill (and 16361-60080 fan) but it's stated in the labor line they had to replace something with the shaft/flange I think (in French: "remplacer moyeu sur pompe neuve" which word to word translate give "replace hub on new pump").
Obviously a fanclutch was also installed as there is one now, I don't know if the fan shroud has also been changed, and what has been done to the spacing of all of that... But it's not stated in the bill while all small details seems to be there like the new hose clips.
This is the better picture I have of it.
VuT26qb.jpg



One option is obviously to come back to a non-fanclutch F style water pump, but the original cast iron waterpump did not did well back then so not very inclined to go that much stock and mainly I like the fan clutch. It's not always very hot around here and my F.5 engine runs a lot better once hot so if it can help to not have a fan blowing all the time.

Now to keep the fan clutch, will the 16100-61020 be similar to the pump with fan clutch we can still find today or is there a difference? Don't know if something changed in 2F between 76' and 77' as the original superseeding of waterpumps stopped here ?
(to my understanding the choices for a new pump are either a Toyota branded with clutch & oil cooler or a Aisin branded with only clutch)
Will I have to re-do the modification that has been done back then to make it fit or do I have a chance it fit easily?


At least it seems it has been done properly back then as it's still holding today... So no emergency to update the pump but I'd prefer to sort it now when I have time and not some day when it fails on me and I'll need it changed quickly.



Hope all of that make sense...
 
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Steamer

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Hello & welcome to the forum.
I don’t have any answers for you, but some more pictures would help those here who probably do.
 

flx

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Yes you are right, when I started the post I though I had better pictures of this...
In the meantime I commissioned the brother to take a new picture with everything:
toyota1.jpg
 

flx

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Not that much success for my thread :/

I share you a vintage picture of my Cruiser doing some serious sidewalk offroading back then in 1978, maybe it will motivate you :)
1978-10-02.jpg


I may even share some colored picture of that time if I'm in a good mood :D
 

65swb45

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You are going to have to remove the system from the truck to get the best advice. The water pump pulley does not resemble the pulleys common to the clutch system. The bevel of the pulley is not consistent with the hub flange design of the clutch system.
 

flx

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Thank you Mark for your answer. I had already the occasion to read tons of good info provided by you all over this forum!


It seems that it is what I feared, either the system was different between 74-76 or it has been hacked-up to fit :/

Body is going off for restoration and will unmount the radiator, it will already give a better view on the fan clutch. Will see to also unmount the clutch and pulley but would prefer not removing the pump from the block if I have no replacement.
Anyway, I hope to comeback in a few weeks with the necessary images.
 
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I would not worry about removing the pump and disassembling. The fan clutch looks like it needs a good cleaning and inspection anyway. The most you risk by removing the pump is that you would have to replace is the water-pump-to-block gasket, which is no big deal.

The water pump is 'mission critical', so you don't want to do any sort of restoration of the truck and not know the status of the pump. Once you have removed the pump and clutch and have taken and posted photos, people here can give you more advice as to whether your parts are unique/oddball or whether you can find spares.

You may indeed find that a different hub was pressed onto your pump, but you need to learn and know all this so that (as you said) you are not in a jam later if the pump fails.
 

65swb45

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I would make the call on pulling the pump based on have a eagle-eyed view of how well the pump pulley aligns with the harmonic balancer. Chances are, it does not.

The next step would be to acquire the pulley that is correct for the clutch fan water pump and recheck alignment. Chances are good that that will be the end of the inquiry.

Having said that, I would still be concerned that having run a misaligned pulley for a significant amount of time will have put undue lateral stress on the impeller bearing in the water pump.
 

flx

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Thanks!

Ok the pump will go then.
The alignement there is no way to check it while installed? Never looked for that but never noticed anything about it, this setup has run without issue for 42 years and almost 100000km now.

Definitively if I succeed to identify which new pump, pulley and clutch will work and it's available from Toyota or Aisin I will change all of them preventively.
 

65swb45

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Thanks!

Ok the pump will go then.
The alignement there is no way to check it while installed? Never looked for that but never noticed anything about it, this setup has run without issue for 42 years and almost 100000km now.

Definitively if I succeed to identify which new pump, pulley and clutch will work and it's available from Toyota or Aisin I will change all of them preventively.

Standing alongside the truck you should be able to line up the alternator, water pump and harmonic balancer with one eye and see if the belt looks like it angles in or out from any of the pulley grooves.
 

ToyotaMatt

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Thanks!

Ok the pump will go then.
The alignement there is no way to check it while installed? Never looked for that but never noticed anything about it, this setup has run without issue for 42 years and almost 100000km now.

Definitively if I succeed to identify which new pump, pulley and clutch will work and it's available from Toyota or Aisin I will change all of them preventively.

see if any of these are a match ..........





 

flx

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Standing alongside the truck you should be able to line up the alternator, water pump and harmonic balancer with one eye and see if the belt looks like it angles in or out from any of the pulley grooves.
Sent the bro in mission again, to his unexperimented eye it seems aligned. Here it's the best picture he has succeeded to do:
toyota2.jpg



see if any of these are a match ..........

Well that I would want to know. If your kit fit for sure it's what I'm looking for.
Anyway I have already a few nuts and rubber from your website I'll have to order :D


---


I tried to understand how the pump-pulley-clutch combo should be assembled from all the other pictures in the forum to get how it should be on mine and what is not correct with pulley and clutch installation but I'm not too sure.
I've seen what should looks like 1 groove non-clutch pulley, 2 grooves non-clutch pulley and 2 grooves clutch pulley but didn't succeed to see a 1 groove pulley for a system with clutch. Is that why my pulley looks incorrect?



Tried to compare the schematics also but the drawing for the pulley is not very clearly drawn for 74-76, still it looks like 1 groove versus the 77 that looks only 2.

01/74 to 01/75 Europe:
20698e37bfe3f514e2292eb84a79ae96-480x529.gif


01/75 to 08/76 Europe:
a6cdab733db80e3d159c2d9e5960300a-480x610.gif


08/76 to 79 WW:
bbb6628f9ec13689c5f043acd5396730-480x630.gif
 

ToyotaMatt

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in my Humble opinion ,

@65swb45 / Mark's Lifetime of on-hands / in-shop Brick and Morter Experience on this topic should be sought out as the deciding factor and
final advise prior to any parts purchased ,

also , he may indeed have the exact NOS OEM TOYOTA Parts Maker AISIN
or other OEM TOYOTA Water Pump / Fluid Coupling maker's units too
such as : GMB , ASCO= " Aisin Seiki Corporation " and some others that came and went ....


IMO , the real TRADE-CRAFT needed on this big picture topic is your pulley being the correct style and layout / size and shape etc...
1 groove or multi grooves , ?



Mark, should be able to propperly I.D. and Source you just that .......... :popcorn:
 
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Onur

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in my Humble opinion ,

@65swb45 / Mark's Lifetime of on-hands / in-shop Brick and Morter Experience on this topic should be sought out as the deciding factor and
final advise prior to any parts purchased ,

also , he may indeed have the exact NOS OEM TOYOTA Parts Maker AISIN
or other OEM TOYOTA Water Pump / Fluid Coupling maker's units too
such as : GMB, ASCO , and some others that came and went ....


IMO , the real TRADE-CRAFT needed on this big picture topic is your pulley being the correct style and layout / size and shape etc...
1 groove or multi grooves , ?



Mark, should be able to propperly I.D. and Source you just that .......... :popcorn:

GMB never made anything for a Toyota Land Cruiser. Ever.

ASCO= Aisin Seiki Corporation

:rolleyes:
 

flx

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Soooo things take always longer than expected but this project finally started... just before general confinement in France.
But now the work is going on again and I even get to see it (but all the body is blocked at the sandblasting company).

IMG_20200408_1203005.jpg



So this give the opportunity to come back on the waterpump topic.
My mechanic (which is not a Toyota specialist but does a lot of old cars and follows this vehicle for a very long time) is formal, for him the fan-clutch, the pulley and the waterpump must have been delivered as one. Looking closer you can see it's assembled with rivet in a place you couldn't imagine a mechanic in its small garage installing them.
IMG_20200408_1206507.jpg

IMG_20200408_1207109.jpg



If you come to the schematics I posed in my previous post you can see the front of the clutch has a different look before 08/76 and after. Now that my radiator is removed I can clearly see mine looks like the first one and different from the one we generally see here (no spring in front but a flat cover):
IMG_20200408_1200076.jpg


The "style" of the pump itself fit the one from 01/75 to 08/76 on the schematics:
IMG_20200408_1206373.jpg
 

flx

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IMG_20200408_1207016.jpg



And looking again at this schematic:
a6cdab733db80e3d159c2d9e5960300a-480x610.gif

We can see the axis of the pump does not have a seat and the pulley does not have a dedicated a part number contrary to the later style.
So I'm starting to believe that yes maybe it all came as one and the style changed in 77 (maybe to allow the double pulley for the power steering option).
 

flx

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So, the conclusion of all of that.

If I want to preventively replace the waterpump it will mean I will have to acquire and replace:
  • a waterpump compatible with fan-clutch
  • a fan-clutch
  • a pulley
  • the various hardware to install them together
That's quite a long list and not sure of the availability new of everything (mainly the pulley). Still questioning if it should be touched at this point while it's working flawlessly and not that problematic to do later 🤔
It's also losing a very small bit of originality of my truck you don't see anywhere else.

I know that as to be there this is something that should be done but that can be said of a lot of things when the body is off and budget can go to infinity quickly... So choices have to be made somewhere/
 

flx

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Weeeeell longtime I haven't updated this topic.
I have been quite busy but I also did a lot of research on this topic and found interesting things to close the question of "WTF is this waterpump installation".

Bear with me, it will be a 3-messages long post to clarify everything and giving my conclusion (and the next question xD). Please read it carefully.

All book pictures from this message come directly from a European market Master Catalog printed in June 1974.
(This particular one was used at Toyota France headquarter shop until they switched to microfiche and the head mechanic give it to my father.)
ad-assets_2019-08_Toyota LC Parts.JPG


Here are the 2 pages with the waterpump setups. Top left is regular F engine, top right H engine, bottom right B engine and bottom left is called "F export".
(Don't hesitate to zoom the image to clearly see)
IMG_20200716_1657541_double.jpg


So, what to look for ?
1) As I had mentioned before in all setup except the "F export" one you can see clearly pictured and identified a seat on which the pulley bolt-on. Remember that when we talked again about rivets later.
2) If you look closely (and zoom to the max) on the fan clutch of the "F export" you will notice that the housing seems to be splitted in 2 and belonging to 2 differents subparts. Hold tight, we will come back to this point soon.
3) Partcode (not partnumber), a partcode for a given type of part should always be the same, for example the waterpump complete assembly is always 16100 for every Toyota car.
Now look to the pulleys. The waterpump pulley is 16371 everywhere except for the "F export" where it is 16202.

And as the Toyota Master catalog is well made, here is the explanation :
IMG_20200716_1656093.jpg

16371 is "Pulley, Fan" => this is the pulley of the fan.
16202 is "Pulley and Bearing case sub-assy, Fluid coupling" => this is the pulley and a case for the clutch.

Remember 2), here it clearly tells us that the back of the clutch casing is one part with the pulley. In the next post I will repost pictures of the rivets on the pulley, those make sense now as you can't dissociate it from the back casing of the fan clutch.


To ends up this post about paperwork here the partnumber and details from the partcode we can find :
IMG_20200716_1656443.jpg

IMG_20200716_1657142.jpg

On 16371 nothing particular to note, business as usual
For 16202 two interesting information :
a) "7401- " => This is a weird change/start date, we all know a lot of changes happened in 7309 and 7402 but that the only one I know in 7401.
b) "For Europe with coupling fluid" => This is for Euro spec only and it confirms a fan clutch for F engine existed in 1974.

I believe a new European regulation for 74 forced them in someway to add a clutch for the fan a bit in a hurry. That's probably the why of the weird date and the weird/hacked-up setup to add this feature without changing all the alignement.
And then in 7608 they re-did it properly for the 2F and the entire world.
 

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