Tough Dog Install w/ 305/65/18 Falkens
- Thread starter Orange Hat
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Orange Hat
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- #22
Wowzer, I’m glad I asked! I thought it rode pretty good as is, gonna ride like a dream once I air down. You would think two tire shops would have said something.The Recommended Cold Tire Inflation Pressure for the Wildpeak A/T3W LT305/65R18E 124/121R tires on your 2018 LC200 is 35psi Front/Rear.
No wonder they feel "harder" than expected.
HTH
THANKS!
You should give her a whirl in the rain! One of the many reasons I picked this tire. The Falken's AT3W's have one of the deepest (19mm vs 15mm for KO2s), if not the deepest tread depth in class. I'm always amazed at the amount of water I can splash through without a hint of traction loss. It entertains the kids (and only the kids
) to splash through standing water along the edge of the road.
Seattle checking in. The Falkens are awesome in the rain.
Orange Hat
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- #25
Wanted to provide a quick update on the latest/greatest...
The Good:
Cruiser is driving FANTASTIC...the Tough Dogs were a great pick! After trying different settings, I've settled on the #3 setting after airing down to the recommended 35 psi (this Forum rocks!). The Cruiser feels planted with a soft enough feel here in the concrete jungle while being firm enough to feel like a truck (and not a Caddy). I'll play with the settings some more once I get it outside city limits...planned trip to Grand Lake, OK. I also got the spare taken care of with a matching Falken 275/70/18.
The Bad:
Alignment issues!! When I first picked the truck up from Tandem, there was a slight pull to the right. Unsure if I was getting used to the feel of wheel spacers, I continued to drive it as is to get a better feel of everything. Well, within a couple of weeks, the pull to the right got worse and worse to the point of not wanting to let the steering wheel go. Considering Tandem is over an hour away vs Firestone at 5 mins, I dropped it off with Firestone to see if something was way off. They said all looked good except for a minor tweak here/there but did recommend cross rotating the front tires which they did. Once back in the vehicle, it drove great with no pull either direction.
Here was the alignment sheet from Firestone:
The Ugly:
After driving it for a week, the pull is back and yes, to the right! This time, there is a significant shimmy in the steering wheel at varying speeds. Now, I have to admit that until this weekend, it was driving with no issues but it seemed something happened while turning left at an intersection that things began not to feel right. Can't quite nail down what that "happened" was but I'm guessing something shifted.
I'm not wanting to damage anything until I can get it into a shop (Firestone, Tandem, or whoever) so the 80 will be on DD duties this week. Pretty frustrated to say the least but until I can get it looked at, any ideas?
The Good:
Cruiser is driving FANTASTIC...the Tough Dogs were a great pick! After trying different settings, I've settled on the #3 setting after airing down to the recommended 35 psi (this Forum rocks!). The Cruiser feels planted with a soft enough feel here in the concrete jungle while being firm enough to feel like a truck (and not a Caddy). I'll play with the settings some more once I get it outside city limits...planned trip to Grand Lake, OK. I also got the spare taken care of with a matching Falken 275/70/18.
The Bad:
Alignment issues!! When I first picked the truck up from Tandem, there was a slight pull to the right. Unsure if I was getting used to the feel of wheel spacers, I continued to drive it as is to get a better feel of everything. Well, within a couple of weeks, the pull to the right got worse and worse to the point of not wanting to let the steering wheel go. Considering Tandem is over an hour away vs Firestone at 5 mins, I dropped it off with Firestone to see if something was way off. They said all looked good except for a minor tweak here/there but did recommend cross rotating the front tires which they did. Once back in the vehicle, it drove great with no pull either direction.
Here was the alignment sheet from Firestone:
The Ugly:
After driving it for a week, the pull is back and yes, to the right! This time, there is a significant shimmy in the steering wheel at varying speeds. Now, I have to admit that until this weekend, it was driving with no issues but it seemed something happened while turning left at an intersection that things began not to feel right. Can't quite nail down what that "happened" was but I'm guessing something shifted.
I'm not wanting to damage anything until I can get it into a shop (Firestone, Tandem, or whoever) so the 80 will be on DD duties this week. Pretty frustrated to say the least but until I can get it looked at, any ideas?
The shimmy is concerning. I would check torque on the spacer lugs. It's important when using new spacers (or even new wheels), that there's a second round of torquing after ~50 miles. This is because aluminum and lugs can take a set, which required re-torquing.
As the lugs on the spacer can't be checked externally, I will usually blue loctite those lugs at the second round of torquing as insurance.
As the lugs on the spacer can't be checked externally, I will usually blue loctite those lugs at the second round of torquing as insurance.
Orange Hat
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- #27
Great feedback and advice! The shimmy was very concerning and why I parked it today to assess. Once home from work tomorrow, I’ll jack up the front and check the spacers and retorque...with that said, what is the proper torque they should be at?
Orange Hat
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- #29
Update...
Pulled the wheels and spacers off the front last night. The spacers were in no doubt over-torqued as it took all of me to loosen the nuts (I'm not a small guy either at 240#). Visually, they looked ok so I went ahead and put some blue Loctite on the threads and torqued them down via star pattern at 115#.
Driving to work this morning, there is still the slightest pull to the right that seems unchanged (as a side note, that pull to the right is progressively worse the harder the acceleration...at coast, not bad at all, if at all). The shimmy was still there but seemed different and not as bad as before. Being more sensitive to it all, I'm thinking that a wheel/tire is out of balance that is being magnified by the spacers.
The plan is to take it back in to Firestone and have them balance the tires:
Pulled the wheels and spacers off the front last night. The spacers were in no doubt over-torqued as it took all of me to loosen the nuts (I'm not a small guy either at 240#). Visually, they looked ok so I went ahead and put some blue Loctite on the threads and torqued them down via star pattern at 115#.
Driving to work this morning, there is still the slightest pull to the right that seems unchanged (as a side note, that pull to the right is progressively worse the harder the acceleration...at coast, not bad at all, if at all). The shimmy was still there but seemed different and not as bad as before. Being more sensitive to it all, I'm thinking that a wheel/tire is out of balance that is being magnified by the spacers.
The plan is to take it back in to Firestone and have them balance the tires:
- Any chance that the over-torqueing ruined the spacers?
- Should I have them remove the spacers and use them to balance the tires?
- Should I be looking for a different tire shop (Tandem outsources their tire work to Discount)?
1. With the lift, is your vehicle height the same on the left and right side, or do you have a lean? If you're leaning you'll get torque steer for sure.
2. Did you install a panhard rod? If not, the rear end is slightly misaligned which results in a slight "crab walk" and will also cause some pull under acceleration.
3. Are your spacers hubcentric? If not you might get some vibration if your wheels aren't perfectly centered.
FWIW I would remove the spacers first and then take the truck for a drive and see if the pull and/or shimmy goes away. If it goes away you know it's a spacer-related issue. If not then you know there's something else going on you need to look for
2. Did you install a panhard rod? If not, the rear end is slightly misaligned which results in a slight "crab walk" and will also cause some pull under acceleration.
3. Are your spacers hubcentric? If not you might get some vibration if your wheels aren't perfectly centered.
FWIW I would remove the spacers first and then take the truck for a drive and see if the pull and/or shimmy goes away. If it goes away you know it's a spacer-related issue. If not then you know there's something else going on you need to look for
When I had my KO2s on, I took the cruiser to Discount Tire and insisted on a “road force” balance. They have a slightly different name for it, but effectively they move the tire on the rim circumferencially to get better balance. It made very large improvements for me as the ATs and up in tread aggressiveness tend to have balancing difficulties.
I also like the customer service of Discount Tire, and found them to be more enjoyable to work with than Firestone (where I’ve done tire and alignment work before).
I also like the customer service of Discount Tire, and found them to be more enjoyable to work with than Firestone (where I’ve done tire and alignment work before).
Came here to post the same thing. Had the same issue with the KO2's that I had installed, but they just did a standard spin balance. Minor shimmy at highway speed. Had them road force balanced, and it made a HUGE difference. Yup, it matches the position of the tire on the rim to any slight imperfection of the rim mounting. The machine somehow figures out the best position for the tire on the rim.
I will use road force balancing on all my tires from now on. Ask around and find a shop that can do it, it's worth it, especially for larger tires.
I think a number of things are going on.
1) Upsized AT tires. You're going to experience a bit more NVH with AT tires, especially as large as these are. They are also very sensitive to incorrect balancing, as the balancing weights on an 18" wheel are located so much more inward from surface of the tire. Add to that that many tire shops aren't using the right flange plate hub adaptor for Toyota wheels. A road force balance will be the best answer so long as they are using the right tools, and the tech has the right skills.
2) Your steering is going to be more sensitive on account of a few things:
a) Lift - results in some caster loss which affects the steerings ability to return to center. Straight ahead tracking is not going to be what it use to
b) Aggressive spacers - Ideally, one would use a 3/4" spacer to have optimal scrub radius due to effective wheel offset. A 1.25" spacer makes the offset a bit aggressive. Which will result in the steering wanting to pull a bit more than stock, as a result of road irregularities and road crown.
c) Wide tires - can tend to tramline (follow road contours) a bit more.
Normally none of these would be an issue. But add a, b and ,c together, and it may manifest in what you're experiencing.
I would recommend you re-balance the wheels. Perhaps another shop that is better equipped to handle it. Going down to a .75" or 1" spacer can help the scrub radius situation.
Orange Hat
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- #34
Ok, have an update based on all of the great feedback/advice so far...
Took the Cruiser back into Firestone today to have them recheck the alignment and do a road force balance. Per the Tech, the alignment checked out just fine with no adjustment needed (funny though how the numbers were different than last week but all still in spec). They said the tires were slightly out of balance and that they got that fixed. Their concerns fell on the spacers regarding the pulling right and the steering wheel shimmy but I heard that as "we're not sure what it is so if you bring it back, there isn't anything we can do".
I took it out for a spin and got it up to speed where I was getting the shimmy and it appears to have disappeared! There was, however, still a slight pull to the right with it more pronounced under acceleration. I've never really noticed it before but when I went to pick it up at Firestone, there did seem to be some lean to the left (driver's side). After I got it in the garage, I measured (floor to fender) and found:
My plan is to take it to work tomorrow to see how it drives with a goal to adjust the lean tomorrow night.
Took the Cruiser back into Firestone today to have them recheck the alignment and do a road force balance. Per the Tech, the alignment checked out just fine with no adjustment needed (funny though how the numbers were different than last week but all still in spec). They said the tires were slightly out of balance and that they got that fixed. Their concerns fell on the spacers regarding the pulling right and the steering wheel shimmy but I heard that as "we're not sure what it is so if you bring it back, there isn't anything we can do".
I took it out for a spin and got it up to speed where I was getting the shimmy and it appears to have disappeared! There was, however, still a slight pull to the right with it more pronounced under acceleration. I've never really noticed it before but when I went to pick it up at Firestone, there did seem to be some lean to the left (driver's side). After I got it in the garage, I measured (floor to fender) and found:
- Driver rear - 38.75"
- Passenger rear - 39.5"
My plan is to take it to work tomorrow to see how it drives with a goal to adjust the lean tomorrow night.
Sorry to hear about the issues you've had out of the gate but it sounds like the tire balance cured most of it. I ran 1.25" spacers on a 3rd gen 4runner for a few years and finally solved the backspacing issue with new wheels, it always felt more solid to me after getting rid of the spacers for what it's worth. Realize with 305s you have to run spacers on factory wheels, but maybe switching to some slightly narrower ones would help as someone mentioned above.
The lean you've got is very similar to where I am with the stock Toyota suspension, I know the Tough Dog rear passenger coil is taller just like factory to account for the weight of the fuel tank. I may run a 10mm coil spacer on the left side only in the rear to even it out. If you get a chance will you measure the fender heights in the front and see I've you've got any lean? I've also got a front fender difference of nearly an inch, hoping the Tough Dog front coils remedy that as both coils are identical in height.
The KDSS tricks I've read about on the forum didn't help with my lean, I think mine is simply from a difference in coil height on the driver and passenger side. I could get it pretty even by closing the valves with the lean very over corrected in the other direction before letting the jack down but the suspension felt much harsher up front. I opened the valves again, let the cruiser settle, then closed them. The lean came back (maybe a slight improvement) but the feel of the suspension was back to normal so I quit messing with it after 6 or 7 attempts over a few days. Curious if you can get yours any closer, please keep us posted!
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Orange Hat
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- #36
Ran out to the garage to get the measurements on the front:
- Driver front - 37.5"
- Passenger front - 38.5"
Spacers...yeah, I'm 50/50 on keeping them as I really believe they are creating more issues than I want. I always wanted to keep the factory wheel as I like to keep the OEM look but spacer problems aren't worth it. The next couple of days are really going to drive that decision. The look and ride of this Cruiser is fantastic and I feel I am this close to having everything where I want it...even if that means aftermarket wheels (probably Methods).
The lean is interesting, but I'm not sure that really is causing any of the behavior. It's not uncommon for a softly sprung SUV/truck to have some lean. Trim packers are your friend to level things out.
In regards to spacers, when used properly in the right setup, they work well. Yes, there's some things to be more cautious of, but once set and done, they are transparent.
Proper wheel offset is more critical than most people give attention to. Wheel spacers directly play into this variable. Ideal offset for a ~33.5" tire is ~40mm offset. The 1.25" spacer you have puts the effective offset at 28mm, which is on the low/aggressive side. It will cause pulling and scrubbing in turns. Most people will just excuse the behavior as "truck". IIRC, method wheels are also low offset at 25mm. So the situation doesn't really improve other than you won't be using a spacer. A .75" spacer puts thing optimally at 40mm effective offset. 1" spacer, 34mm.
In regards to spacers, when used properly in the right setup, they work well. Yes, there's some things to be more cautious of, but once set and done, they are transparent.
Proper wheel offset is more critical than most people give attention to. Wheel spacers directly play into this variable. Ideal offset for a ~33.5" tire is ~40mm offset. The 1.25" spacer you have puts the effective offset at 28mm, which is on the low/aggressive side. It will cause pulling and scrubbing in turns. Most people will just excuse the behavior as "truck". IIRC, method wheels are also low offset at 25mm. So the situation doesn't really improve other than you won't be using a spacer. A .75" spacer puts thing optimally at 40mm effective offset. 1" spacer, 34mm.
Yeah that much lean to the drivers side front and rear seems KDSS related to me, at least I hope that’s the case as I’m about to install the same suspension! If it is KDSS I would think opening the valves on a level surface, shaking the vehicle left and right, then letting it sit for 20-30 minutes should equalize the system and remedy the issue. Trying to overcorrect the lean and closing the valves in that position didn’t work for me but some have had success with it so that can always be plan B.
I too love the factory wheels on the 16+ but there are some good aftermarket options. Seems like a 285/70r18 is about as tall and wide as factory wheels can handle without wheel spacers or a lot of trimming, unfortunately there aren’t many tire options in that size.
Hope the KDSS adjustments work out!
I'd level the KDSS. If your driver's side was higher I'd worry the rear springs are swapped, but the taller one is supposed to go on the passenger's side, so if that side is taller then they're definitely correct.