The best engine swap? The ultimate Question!

[trscott]

You aren't listening very well are you?

maybe a rebuilt 3fe will yield more power? Than your already proved its self 250-350k wore out poo poo on it cause it dont have no power!!!!

Look, I put most of those 285k miles on it myself and some of them were tough rock-grinding miles in low range, and a lot were long marches through hot high-desert highways, and I love this truck and I wouldn't be trying to figure out what to do with it, but I am soon going to have to do SOMETHING because I know it won't last forever.

The question I am asking is what are my options and is there any way to improve on the limitations of this engine? I am not here whining, but I just have trouble believing you cannot get more HP AND more MPG than this thing does. Reading the reviews of this rig brand-new in 1990 and 1991 they all talked about how underpowered it was, so I don't think this is just a matter of a tired engine. Toyota didn't stay with it either you will notice. It has always been like this. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I had the compression checked and all cylinders were well balanced and a long way from recomended rebuild.

and it aint cool!, motor already has, since the cylender walls could be letting pressure and oil by, injectors and intake could be clogged, carbon build up on the valves. EGR stopped up??

I also said I had it in for a complete tuneup and brand new cat. I mean everything! A good shop went through this thing with a fine tooth comb looking for anything that might be robbing power or mileage. Now maybe the shop that did the work doesn't know what they are doing, perhaps there are some tricks with this engine outside the stock recomendations, things that not everyone knows... Which is why I am asking here! The obvious normal tuneup stuff has been done, and if it helped at all it was so little I am not sure I am not just trying to feel good about all the money I spent!

Allot has happened in what we call "high miles" allot of gas (some good quality, some bad quality) has gone through it, allot of wear put on it......

For crying out loud stop this.

I am not complaining that the engine is wearing out. I marvel at the life this thing has had! But, listen closely...

It is going to need a new engine soon (who knows, maybe it will go to 500k - oh God please no...! <grin>), but what are my choices when I finally must replace it?

I am a firm believer that, very often, the cheapest car to own is the one you already have, if you've chosen well in the first place, which I think I have. But it is just difficult to believe that in sixteen years there is nothing better to do under the hood than this stock 3FE that needs an orange triangle on the tailgate to be safe on the highway!

Q:" My motor has gone 300k it has no power, the cool kids dont like it, but still runs, what can I do except repower it? "

A: spend way more money converting it to a less reliable, having to purchase unit.

Re-read the paragraph above. I am tired of defending against the whine charge which isn't fair or accurate...

The best motor for it?...........is already in it!

Really? When it finally drops a valve or something, the best option is just to put the same stock 3FE back in there? That would be very disappointing! If I thought there was really nothing even remotely affordable to do that would give it more high speed pulling power and/or better fuel efficiency, then maybe I should go buy a Ford! But I don't believe that. I am convinced that part of the fuel efficiency problem is that the motor is so underpowered that it is always downshifting up hills. I've read that even a new 3FE was this way, so it isn't just that this thing is old. Different gearing doesn't seem like a very good solution, sure I can get more torgue to go up hills, but the cost of -- what -- 9 or 10 mpg instead of 11 or 12?

I live a thousand feet above a town that is three miles away as the crow flies and six by road. I climb that hill every day, sometimes several times in a day. A person in Kansas might not be able to relate. On flat and level it runs like a top all day (well except for stopping every couple hundred miles for petrol).

Sure I could sell it and buy a newer year model with a bit better engine. So are we just supposed to park these '91s with the 3FE? I am sure the dealers would like that, but somebody must have a better plan than that.

As an afterthought, I am in the Portland Oregon area and would welcome any advice of a shop that really knows these engines and might be able to do better.

In summary, you will please forgive us if a diesel or a small V8 seem awfully attractive possibilities if you are putting a new engine in anyway.

Reminder to self: Stop by Wilco on the way home to get another orange triangle like I have on the back of the John Deere.

 

[trscott]

Thanks!

4.88 R&P is ring and pinion in the third members, the differentials in the axles. The power and torque delivered to the ground is multiplied by the new ratio (4.88) instead of (4.11 < the stock R&P ratio).

Thanks for the details. I appreciate it.

So if I just do a calculation of the ratio change, my mileage would drop to 9.3 to 10.1 mpg instead of the current 11 to 12 mpg. Maybe it would not be that bad if it allows the rig to not have to downshift so much on hills.

How tough is that to do at home? Any special tools? I have pretty good general purpose home shop, but no Toyota tools. Not much in the way of gear pullers, hydraulic press, etc.

 

[arcteryx]

Look, I put most of those 285k miles on it myself and some of them were tough rock-grinding miles in low range, and a lot were long marches through hot high-desert highways, and I love this truck and I wouldn't be trying to figure out what to do with it, but I am soon going to have to do SOMETHING because I know it won't last forever.


I am a firm believer that, very often, the cheapest car to own is the one you already have, if you've chosen well in the first place, which I think I have. But it is just difficult to believe that in sixteen years there is nothing better to do under the hood than this stock 3FE that needs an orange triangle on the tailgate to be safe on the highway!

And that is the mentality you need to have to do a diesel conversion. You have no plans to sell it. It's been a faithful family member. And, spending the money on a conversion is expensive, but it's less than a new car.

You are wise to start looking now and planning. Slowly accumulate the parts you need, so when it's time, you are that far along. Plus, it makes it easier on the wallet when things are accrued over time.

Cheers!

 

[lt1fire]

when i decide to do this im leaning to diesel for quite a few reasons but none of them is to save money overall.
1. more power
2. better gas mileage (longer range, i hate having to stop wheeling to go back to a gas station to fill up)
3. can make it green with bio or wvo and make ur own for 70 cents if need be. this is also good as there will always be a supply and take dependency on oil out of my vehicle
4. longer life span
now all of these put together makes me go that way. I have thought about a propane swap or a v8 and a propane swap but the lower mpg/power and having to mount the tanks in the vehicle (taking up valuable storage space) makes me shy away from that one.

 

[rtarh2o]

Back to my 6.2 diesel, if you have a 91-92 the transmissions are geared so that they will work fine with the diesel. Combine them with 33" or larger tires and you will have about 2000 rpm @ 70 mph. Because of that you do not have to buy a transmission or deal with any of the electrical things associated with the transmission. Marks in Australia makes an adapter for the 6.2 to the Toyota transmission, It is pretty expensive, maybe $750 but it is the only conversion I know of that uses the Toyota transmission. You are basically saving the price of a new transmission because if you change the transmission you have to buy a transfer case adapter that is about the same price. You can buy military take-out 6.2's that are in really nice shape and wouldn't need rebuilding for about $500-900 depending upon where you are. The only problems with these is that the one I bought didn't have any accessories on it (power steering, A/C, alternator) and they are 24V systems. It isn't any big deal to change it to 12V, just the glow plugs and the fuel shutoff switch. So you have 2 choices, you can buy used from the salvage yard with all accessories and rebuild everything, or buy a military take out (assume it is good) and buy all accessories and brackets. Money wise it is a toss up. I think either way you are talking about probably $2,000 for the engine finished up but in both cases it would be a good engine. I chose the military take out, ordered all accessory brackets (was like putting together a jig saw puzzle since I had never seen any of them) and new accessories. I feel good knowing that all my accessories are new. There are alot of little things, brakes need to be changed to hydroboost (not hard to do just more money) of I have heard you can use a vacuum pump that is on most 6.2's to run the Toyota booster. I am just installing my radiator hoses (had to look around the back of the parts store and cut some to fit since I am using my Toyota radiator.
Anyway, my point is you can probably swap to a 6.2 diesel for not much more than rebuilding your 3FE. Power will be a bit better (adding a turbo is then an easy option) as will mileage. It is not too hard of a swap but is very time consuming.

 

[tntoyota]

You aren't listening very well are you?

My criteria are these in order of importance.

1. dependable
1.5 as good gas mileage as possible
2. as affordable a swap as possible (I'm just a poor fireman)
3. as easy a swap os possible (I'm just a poor DUMB fireman)
4. prefer a toyota

So, thats easy enough isn't it?

Look forward to the input.

Thanks
Kent

Man, the 12HT swap would be awesome, except for 3 problems with tha engine choice. 1) I don't have that kind of dough to spend 2)not enough time or space to do that kind of swap 3) not enough knowledge for that kind of swap, and it would be WAY expensive to have someone else do the swap for me.

But I sure would like to see pics of your swap!

Thanks
Kent

....to who?


To everyone:

Conversion bell housing's, motor mounts and all the stuff that goes with it, is not free. It is very hard, time and money consuming to want more power.
The 1st step in wanting more power is to establish a base line, a wore out motor does not perform as a new one will and wont take kindly to some of the bolt on's that will cause more stress on an already wore unit. Establishing a base line (repower/ rebuild) and completely exhausting your bolt on options will still have less of an impact on you budget than most conversions. And who knows you might be surprised at your findings and be impressed with what you find in the new motor. Lots of reformed 3fe'rs out there the only thing is theres not as many that poo poo the engine cause of what they find in the Trq/ HP ratings and 200k+ miles of wear...

 

[landtank]

dumping a load of cash on a conversion as drastic and a completely different motor will put the truck into a financial hole that it will never climb out of.

This goes for any major alteration to the original design, Portals and 3 link suspensions fall into this category as well.

You might think this ride will last you for ever but look through the for sale section and see how many heavily modified trucks are for sale and still for sale. Everyone is quick to praise these radical modifications but not will to buy one after it's done.

Going forward with this sort of change you might as well consider all the investment a complete loss and be prepared to take that kind of hit if you ever really need cash and look at this as a way to raise some.

 

[trscott]

Your 4BT conversion...

And that is the mentality you need to have to do a diesel conversion. You have no plans to sell it. It's been a faithful family member. And, spending the money on a conversion is expensive, but it's less than a new car.

You are wise to start looking now and planning. Slowly accumulate the parts you need, so when it's time, you are that far along. Plus, it makes it easier on the wallet when things are accrued over time.

Cheers!

Is there a real detailed photo tutorial on this conversion that anyone has done anywhere? I would love to see every little gory detail.

Did you begin with a new engine, or a used one pulled from a panel van or something?

Are there a lot of different versions of the 4BT? Seems like I have seen different HPs quoted for it. If so, are there good ones and bad ones?

I hear a lot of talk "about" doing conversions, but I see precious little detail. I am sure the folks that have done these have learned a lot that they could share.

Still not decided yet, but more mileage and more HP would be VERY nice. I am not going to pay more than I paid originally for the truck ($12k) to get it, but something more than a stock engine rebuild would make sense. If I can save some money by scrounging, and can learn what to look for, that would be great.

Cheers!

 

[gnx7]

Another option that should be looked at are the newer LSx series engines found in GM trucks. The 4.8 is a dog, the 6.0 makes tons of torque; however suffers from terrible gas mileage. The 5.3 is a wonderful engine sized just in between which offers good power and nice fuel economy. It is rated at 310hp/335 ft/lbs tq with 14mpg city and 20mpg highway (2wd) with a mellow foot.

You can pick up a 5.3/4L65E engine/trans used combo from just about any auto dismantler (car-part.com) for under $2K with reasonable mileage on them. The 4L65E can be mated to either an FJ60 split case transfercase or I'm sure you could figure out how to mate the 5.3 to the existing FJ80 transmission.

The 5.3 has minimal moving parts so that just about anyone can work on them. One can add a used Z06 (Corvette) camshaft $100, long tube headers $250-550, and better exhaust to net an easy 50hp with no changes in fuel economy. A retune for the LSx PCM (computer) is about $200 mail order.

It isn't a diesel; however it does sip 87 octane.

-Mark

 

[tntoyota]

Another option that should be looked at are the newer LSx series engines found in GM trucks. The 4.8 is a dog, the 6.0 makes tons of torque; however suffers from terrible gas mileage. The 5.3 is a wonderful engine sized just in between which offers good power and nice fuel economy. It is rated at 310hp/335 ft/lbs tq with 14mpg city and 20mpg highway (2wd) with a mellow foot.

You can pick up a 5.3/4L65E engine/trans used combo from just about any auto dismantler (car-part.com) for under $2K with reasonable mileage on them. The 4L65E can be mated to either an FJ60 split case transfercase or I'm sure you could figure out how to mate the 5.3 to the existing FJ80 transmission.

The 5.3 has minimal moving parts so that just about anyone can work on them. One can add a used Z06 (Corvette) camshaft $100, long tube headers $250-550, and better exhaust to net an easy 50hp with no changes in fuel economy. A retune for the LSx PCM (computer) is about $200 mail order.

It isn't a diesel; however it does sip 87 octane.

-Mark

great info :https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/183953-white-ghost-gets-second-chance.html

 

[MIGUELBLUE]

Install The Best Toyota Engine NEVER Fabricated The 1hdt 12 Valves, 6 In Line An 4,2 Liter Turbo Charged.

The Toyota Best Engine Never Fabricated.

 

[motoloco]

I am doing the GM 6.0 325hp hummer version and 4l65e mated to a fj60 case. should be very light combo with decent MPG and way more fun/betterhandling than a diesel swap. I have about 4k in parts so far.

 

[stereophile33]

hey guys, my company is a performance volvo company, but we have started working on better fuel efficient 2v motors.

Would people be interested in pistons and head combination that would net 22-23mpg?

Pistons would be pretty pricey as our peices currently are $150 a piston.

Heads would be $1500-1800 as we have to weld in material to make the chamber flow better. Currently we have been doing this research for our own vehicles but if others are interested we would be glad to offer some of our parts up.

 

[ArmyFJ]

hey guys, my company is a performance volvo company, but we have started working on better fuel efficient 2v motors.

Would people be interested in pistons and head combination that would net 22-23mpg?

Pistons would be pretty pricey as our peices currently are $150 a piston.

Heads would be $1500-1800 as we have to weld in material to make the chamber flow better. Currently we have been doing this research for our own vehicles but if others are interested we would be glad to offer some of our parts up.

Are you talking about gas or diesel?

 

[stereophile33]

gas 2/3fe ad 1fz I just love teh straight 6 and know these engines are deeply reliable and the costs of the rebuild and one of heads would be somewhat pricey, but much less expensive that a vortec or diesel swap.

 

[arcteryx]

Is there a real detailed photo tutorial on this conversion that anyone has done anywhere? I would love to see every little gory detail.

Did you begin with a new engine, or a used one pulled from a panel van or something?

Are there a lot of different versions of the 4BT? Seems like I have seen different HPs quoted for it. If so, are there good ones and bad ones?

I hear a lot of talk "about" doing conversions, but I see precious little detail. I am sure the folks that have done these have learned a lot that they could share.

Still not decided yet, but more mileage and more HP would be VERY nice. I am not going to pay more than I paid originally for the truck ($12k) to get it, but something more than a stock engine rebuild would make sense. If I can save some money by scrounging, and can learn what to look for, that would be great.

Cheers!

I am not aware of a tutorial. I got lucky with mine- I bought it from one of Proffitt's employees. It was his wife's rig. The engine came out of a Frito truck, but was rebuilt by Cummins. My avatar is the Recon logo on the head in the Whale.

Proffitt's is THE leader in Land Cruiser 4BT conversions. Check out their website and search Mud on them. They only use Recon or New engines.

There is the 4BT and 4BTA, which is what I have. It's after-cooled.

Other than Proffits, there are not a lot of other places doing Cummins conversions for cruisers that I am aware of. Occasionally, I'll see one done by a DIY mechanic. Cool.

If you were gonna do it, spend the money and get a Recon or New. Last time I looked, they were $7500 for the engine, and another $1500 for accessories (alternator, vacuum, etc.).

The cost is about the same as a 1HZ. I chose the Cummins because of parts. If something breaks, I can go to Napa and get what I need. On the 1HZ, you will have to wait up to 3 weeks for it, since it was never a NA vehicle.

There are other engines that are good to. Rusty already spoke of the 6.2L. With a couple of the known problems addressed by aftermarket solutions, it's a very reliable engine. Can't wait to see pics of it (hint hint Randy!). He has talked about it in a couple other diesel threads in detail, so you can search.

Also, here are two VERY informative sites. Andre's and his other site, 4BTswaps. I used the first one a TON when I was researching.

Hope that helps some. Let me know if you have more questions.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[alaskacruiser]

stereophile33- if you could pull off 22-23MPG from a 1FZ (not to mention the others) in an 80 with just a new head/piston combo, I think you'd have a solid hit on your hands. However, I am quite skeptical as to whether this is possible. More details, please!

 

[ArmyFJ]

Yup hit us with some more info.

 

[alaskacruiser]

I am not aware of a tutorial. I got lucky with mine- I bought it from one of Proffitt's employees. It was his wife's rig. [...] Let me know if you have more questions.
Cheers,
Jason

arcteryz- would you mind posting your observed mileage figured with the 4BT in this thread? Would be much appreciated.

 

[hobbes]

No way you get 23 mpg out of a gasser. That would be nearly doubling the efficency. Mr. T would draw and quarter his flow engineers.