Suspension questions

[StressPuppy]

Ever since I put on my OME springs and shocks, Slee bushings and Nitto 33s (305/75-16, the steering on my rig SUCKS. Last year I took a family trip of about 1500 miles and it was like fighting a mule. I checked things out before we left this year and all seemed ok, but half way through our trip, I feel like my wrists and arms are going to fall off trying to keep this thing on track!

My problem is that there is A LOT of play in the steering (3+ inches). Then if the rig catches something in the road or starts to wander, it takes a fair amount to get it back on track. Very little one handed driving.

In previous threads, I have looked at and reported on the caster, which seems to be in spec. The correction bushings are in correctly. The tie rod ends are the new ones from Slee and the bars are also new from Slee. Front axle has been rebuilt in the last 10,000 miles. Mechanically, I don't think there is anything wrong (unless it is the steering box).

At this point, I can't take it any more. I'm not willing to get rid of the rig, so I need to figure out how to make it better. So here are some of my questions:

1) Is this solely because of the wider (305) tires having more traction? If I went back to stock width, would this get better? How much will just the width do?

2) What happens to the caster if I go back to stock springs and shocks, but leave in the correction bushings? Can I do stock springs and OME shocks?

3) How much can really be in the steering box? I know there are threads on doing small adjustments, but there can also be issues with that.

Where should I start? What order should I tackle things? I HAVE to make this better. My wife isn't fond of driving it and my 16 year old is a bit afraid of it (and he needs to get all the behind the wheel time he can!).

 

[IdahoDoug]

Stock wheels?

DougM

 

[Tools R Us]

...
My problem is that there is A LOT of play in the steering (3+ inches)...

This is the first thing to find, probably most or all of your problem. Get under the truck and have a helper move the steering wheel back and forth in the play range, look at what is moving and what isn't. It could be in the box, tie rod ends, loose steering arms, wheel bearings, etc.

 

[OGBeno]

You are driving a lifted vehicle with mud tires as well as having very stiff shock/spring set-up.

Is your truck on the light side (ie: do you have any armor?)? If not, you are going to bounce a lot all over the place.

Are all of your bolts torqued within the correct spec? (specifically your suspension points)

Are you front and rear springs into the housings correctly?

Make sure that the tie rod/relay rod are in correct orientation and tight.

Is your steering damper torqued down enough?

By lifting the vehicle and putting larger than stock tires on it, you have changed many of the original design parameters that were created for--logically--a "good ride." That said, you are now driving a vehicle that sits higher and has front and rear solid axles--a good combination for a ride that really feels like a truck.

Good luck.

 

[cruiserdan]

I have 850J's, a one inch spacer, 305 tires and OME bushings only, no other caster correction. Mine drives very well but could use a bit more caster. You have some other issue if you have that much slop and that kind of wander. It is not the combinationation per-se, something is not working properly.

 

[-Spike-]

I agree- the lift alone isn't causing all your problems. Find the play in the steering, I bet that fixing that will make you much happier. What kind of tires are you running? Bias-ply or radial?

-Spike

 

[wileetoyote]

My problem is that there is A LOT of play in the steering (3+ inches). Then if the rig catches something in the road or starts to wander, it takes a fair amount to get it back on track. Very little one handed driving.

The tie rod ends are the new ones from Slee and the bars are also new from Slee. Front axle has been rebuilt in the last 10,000 miles. Mechanically, I don't think there is anything wrong (unless it is the steering box).

You replaced the tie rod ends and rods? Sound to me like your toe-in is off or not enough for the wider tires. I know you mentioned the castor is correct but did you do a full alignment AFTER you had EVERYTHING installed?

Also, what tire pressure are you running for street use?

I recently installed OME Medium springs, shocks, and the 4+ 3" front drop bracket and just this past weekend I installed the MAF 30mm front spacers. I run 275/75/16 MTR's and I never felt a difference in steering at all. still feels like stock.

If your toe-in is correct then Tools R Us probably had the best advice.

good luck.

WET

 

[wileetoyote]

What kind of tires are you running? Bias-ply or radial?

-Spike

Good point...last year I started to get a really bad pull on my Avalon with 4 new tires (only a couple months old). I had it aligned and they said it was dead on. they swapped the two front tires and it pulled in the opposite direction. I took it back to costco where they replaced the one tire and all was good after that.

WET

 

[kennyv0826]

This is the first thing to find, probably most or all of your problem. Get under the truck and have a helper move the steering wheel back and forth in the play range, look at what is moving and what isn't. It could be in the box, tie rod ends, loose steering arms, wheel bearings, etc.

Excellent sugestion! Doing this will tell you A LOT. It will eliminate many possibilitys. One thing to keep in mind though is that when you drive the vehicle you have the weight of the truck on all the components (one or more of which could be your problem). So when you have it in the air it may be tough to spot unless you REALLY wrench on the steering components. Try getting under it when it's still on the ground and the problem may show up easier.

If you still don't find anything wrong then I would consider taking it to a place like Les Schwab tire co. . Because they will diagnose it for free and there alignment shop is pretty knowledgeable on lifted vehicles since they see so many of them.

 

[Nay]

Full alignment comes first if you haven't done it.

Aside from the other suggestions, you may also have worn rear control arm bushings. One thing a lift will do is point out all of the wear items that need to be replaced, and you can get thrust angle problems with worm rubber bushings that won't necessarily show up on an alignment rack but will under torque.

Take a good look at those wheel bearings and other stuff recommended, though.

Nay

 

[StressPuppy]

LC has had a full alignment (I have a lifetime alignment with Firestone so I take it often) just a week ago. I had them check it and they said it had play in the front and pointed to one of the rod ends. Upon looking at it, I found a problem that has been talked about here: The castle nut wasn't prevented from moving by the cotter pin because it hole for the cotter was too far out (Slee ends). I checked it and didn't find any issues with the end itself, so I put a thick washer on and torqued it back down that that fixed it. Things got a little better, but not good enough.

As mentioned before, the front axle has been completely rebuilt with parts from Dan and torqued, etc to specs.

Tires are Nitto radials (I'm pretty sure).

I'll double check the toe in.

What is the best way to check the rear bushings?

With the lift on it, no need to raise it to check the steering components!

How much would side wall flex have to do with such looseness?


Thanks for the input so far. I'll check these things and report back. Any other ideas would be great.

CDan - if I had to replace the steering box, how many kids would I have to sell to do it?

 

[Nay]

LC has had a full alignment (I have a lifetime alignment with Firestone so I take it often) just a week ago. I had them check it and they said it had play in the front and pointed to one of the rod ends. Upon looking at it, I found a problem that has been talked about here: The castle nut wasn't prevented from moving by the cotter pin because it hole for the cotter was too far out (Slee ends). I checked it and didn't find any issues with the end itself, so I put a thick washer on and torqued it back down that that fixed it. Things got a little better, but not good enough.

As mentioned before, the front axle has been completely rebuilt with parts from Dan and torqued, etc to specs.

Tires are Nitto radials (I'm pretty sure).

I'll double check the toe in.

What is the best way to check the rear bushings?

With the lift on it, no need to raise it to check the steering components!

How much would side wall flex have to do with such looseness?


Thanks for the input so far. I'll check these things and report back. Any other ideas would be great.

CDan - if I had to replace the steering box, how many kids would I have to sell to do it?

Did the washer make a huge difference? Or do you still have a problem? You probably need a new alignment after that adjustment.

You Nitto tires are not bias ply. Low tire pressure can be a problem (as can high pressure). Tire shops tend to inflate larger tires at way over spec. Mine come out of the shop at 45 psi or more and it is just about undriveable. With large D rated tires, you should be able to run around 31-32 PSI. So check the pressure.

You need to flex the rear suspension to check the bushings. They will be cracked and look brittle.

You may also want new bushings for your panhards. Worn panhard bushings will create a great deal of steering slop, especially the front.

There is a bottom line here: all of your rod ends and bushings are likely very old and can use replacement. That includes control arms, panhards, and steering components. You'll find it.

Nay

 

[StressPuppy]

Yes, putting the washer in tightened things up a bit. Not a lot, but noticable. Mainly because before the castle nut had backed out and the rod end was loose. And I did have the alignment done after that.

Front control arms have new correction bushings I bought from Slee when I bought the OME stuff. All rod ends and rods are NEW. I have checked to make sure everything there s tight and found nothing beyond the one end that I have fixed.

31-32 seems kind of low. The tire is rated to 65. I have tried everything from 32 to 48. My thinking on the higher numbers was less rubber on the road so less chance of it grabbing something and wandering off. For others that have the bigger (305) tires, and specifically the Nittos, what pressure are you running?

We are on a family driving trip right now and will have to suffer through until we get back home. We still have several hundred miles to go, so I'll just continue to fight with it and keep it between the lines (most of the time!) .

 

[sleeoffroad]

StessPuppy, can you repost your allignment specs? Or a link to it.
Your lift and tires should drive close, if not better than stock. Something else is up.

 

[kennyv0826]

31-32 seems kind of low. The tire is rated to 65. I have tried everything from 32 to 48. My thinking on the higher numbers was less rubber on the road so less chance of it grabbing something and wandering off. For others that have the bigger (305) tires, and specifically the Nittos, what pressure are you running?

Don't be too concerned with what the tire says. You need to stay closer to what Toyota reccomends for tire pressure (usually within a few psi). This is of course if you are running a radial. If it's a bias ply then there are several other things to consider, but if you have a Nitto it should be a radial. From what it sounds like though, I doubt that is the main problem. Keep us posted.

 

[kennyv0826]

One more thing. If you want to rule out the tires as a possible problem, throw on some stockers (or anything you know roll down the road fine) and see if it makes any difference.

 

[Nay]

StessPuppy, can you repost your allignment specs? Or a link to it.
Your lift and tires should drive close, if not better than stock. Something else is up.

I agree - if it is not a worn part I'm starting to think something like a cross caster problem. Who installed your bushings?

 

[LukeO]

By three inches of play in the steering, I assume you mean the wheel moves three inches before you feel any response in the steering.

I have a 97 with 315's Mud TA's on J's and castor bushings with over 190K and though the castor is off, there really is little play. Now my 72 had three or more inches of play without power steering turning 35" mud TA's and even it was not as difficult to drive as you've described. My 96 Tacoma with 38" TSL Swampers after the power steering pump froze and I had to cut the belt to drive home drove somewhat similar to what you describe, though later I discovered the power/rack/pinion was blown too.

A lifted/modified vehicle will never again steer as it did stock.

 

[StressPuppy]

Finally back home from our vacation trip. Whew! Six of us (my 4 boys, wife and me), 5 cities, 4 hotels, a little sunburn and 1700 miles later.... We had a blast, but the steering was a pain.

I took the tire pressure from 48 down to 38. That helped a little, but not a bunch. I'll go down a bit more and try that.

I'll also get under the rig tomorrow and check to see if anything is loose when turning the wheel.

I agree - if it is not a worn part I'm starting to think something like a cross caster problem. Who installed your bushings?

Me (enough said!). I was very careful and I am pretty sure they are right, but nobody is perfect.

I have my specs from the previous alignment but not the most recent. I'll get those tomorrow and post them.

Here is the history of my issue: https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=55335 (specs included).

 

[SUMOTOY]

I have my specs from the previous alignment but not the most recent. I'll get those tomorrow and post them.

Here is the history of my issue: https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=55335 (specs included).

SP:
I looked at your specs, and will go under the assumption they are correct. IMO, your advice to date is at the wrong end of the truck. You have a pretty massive toe problem in the RR, which can manifest itself as massive front end wandering, specifically massive front end steering correction required, btst.

I'd suspect you have something majorly array in the back, that's causing you to make massive front steering corrections to a rear steer problem. That rear spec jumps big time, not the front. I'd be cking rear bushings and links, and possibly taking a tape measure out and cking all your mounting point locations (bent).

Blown rear shock, bad shock mount, bad trailing arm bushing, bent trailing arm attachment point, twisted frame (doubt it), missing or too much play in a bushing...

You also might try standing on the tail gate and seeing how far your specs move. Remember alignments give a moment in time view, add a different moment (weight), a good alignment guy should be able to identify the problem right away.

If nothing jumps out at you, find a good body shop that does frame alignment and show him the specs. I don't think you will correct this with another front end alignment. It's not a front end problem, IMO

HTH and my .02

Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ Performance Tuning
Chicago
94 FZJ80 Supercharged