Shocks

[sc40]

i need to buy the shock adapters today, is it a 5/8th hole or 9/16th hole? i dont know how i'd find out

 

[sleeoffroad]

Bilsteins with eye adapters will be an excellent choice. Look into the 5100 series 10" travel 270/55 valving. This is a major upgrade over pin style mount OME shocks for reasons of actual shock characteristics, reduction of excess shock bushing material (more bushing = more total shock body movement potential), and the install reasons you experienced. This mates up perfectly with 35" tires on a 3" - 3.5" lift.

Couple of points on this. Reduced bushing size is not always a good thing. On an expedition truck that is heavily loaded it could lead to premature bushing failure. That is one of the main reasons the OME buishings are big.

Nay, what other shock characteristics do you think are superior to OME? See comments to Cary below. I don't want to start a pissing match, I just want the characteristics are.

One other thing I want to point out is shock mount rigidity, which I believe increases substantially in an eye to eye mount due to mount style and decrease in bushing material. Pin style mounts with 1" of total bushing have a lot than can move around. When I first installed my suspension, I managed to leave one bolt on the driver's side rear shock tower loose, but the other tight. Just that tiny bit of movement had my truck bottoming out all over the place.

I fail to see how a loose or tight shock mount is going to make the truck bottom out less or more. If you hit a bump and the suspension compresses with the shock mount loose, it should just push against both inside bushing and the shock will do it's job. I can see if it is really loose, like 1/2" of play that on the rebound you might loose some dampening due to the free travel when the shock mounts move from being compressed to extended.

As soon as you get over 2-2.5" of lift, the Bilsteins are not long enough. They are (IMHO) a far superior shock to the OME, but with a big lift like you have, the choice is easy as there is no choice.

Cary, why do you think it is superior to Bilstein with specific reference to the 80 series and it's intended off-road use? There are numerous features built into the OME shock that the Bilsteins does not have. I would just like to see a feaure by feature comparison of the two shocks. We are working to get some Bilsteins for special applications that have some different features that regular 5100 shocks that can be bought over the counter. I also have no doubt that in the higher end shocks like the 7100 series they have better offerings than OME, just not sure on the low end.

However OME is a double all shock, so if you dent the outside, the shocks till works. It has large bushings to stop premature wear of the bushings, larger rod diameter (18mm). Steel cover over piston rod to protect it from stones. Bypass valving set up specifically for the 80 series. This helps with reducing the transmission of little bumps into the vehicle (like corrugations).

This mates up perfectly with 35" tires on a 3" - 3.5" lift.

I am not sure sc40 has 3/3.5" of lift. He mentioned 851's on the front with a spacer. TJM bumper and winch. Maybe it is 850's. I also think you need to qualify that flares play and issue as does the springs possibly becoming unseated.

Just to qualify, I am not bashing Bilstein, just want to get the facts out and peoples opinions on why they are better. Nay has done some great testing, however ride quality if very subjective. What works for one does not work for another, but facts about shock construction, features etc is a given. I would be the first to admit that when we get to the taller lifts OME is not the No1 choice for us, but it is a direct bolt in solution. We are working on a longer travel shocks that has more dampening to help with taller trucks.

Maybe I need to drive Nay's truck and see what the oopla is about. Nay, we are doing Independance in a couple of weeks. Want to go

 

[sc40]

well i did order the bilstiens, if anyone in the greenville or columbia area would like to compare i am more than willing to let you drive. i still have the question about the hole size

 

[cary]

I fail to see how a loose or tight shock mount is going to make the truck bottom out less or more. If you hit a bump and the suspension compresses with the shock mount loose, it should just push against both inside bushing and the shock will do it's job. I can see if it is really loose, like 1/2" of play that on the rebound you might loose some dampening due to the free travel when the shock mounts move from being compressed to extended.



Cary, why do you think it is superior to Bilstein with specific reference to the 80 series and it's intended off-road use? There are numerous features built into the OME shock that the Bilsteins does not have. I would just like to see a feaure by feature comparison of the two shocks. We are working to get some Bilsteins for special applications that have some different features that regular 5100 shocks that can be bought over the counter. I also have no doubt that in the higher end shocks like the 7100 series they have better offerings than OME, just not sure on the low end.

However OME is a double all shock, so if you dent the outside, the shocks till works. It has large bushings to stop premature wear of the bushings, larger rod diameter (18mm). Steel cover over piston rod to protect it from stones. Bypass valving set up specifically for the 80 series. This helps with reducing the transmission of little bumps into the vehicle (like corrugations).

First, I agree with your comment that a loose shock should not cause bottoming. If I had to guess it felt like bottoming because with a loose mount an a solid mount, you get a harsh bang when the shock moves back and forth.

Concerning OME vs. Bilstein. In the past OME has not had (or at least made public) that they use multistage valving, they apparently are now. I believe that multistage valving is necessary to have a shock that can maintain decent ride quality while still dampining.

While the debate has raged on for years about low pressure twin tube shocks vs. high pressure monotubes, I believe for off road conditions where the shocks are subject to corregated surfaces and other use where their tempurature is highly elevated, high pressure monotubes work better. Look at what is used in baja and other endurance racing, they are all (or at least used to be) high pressure monotubes with outboard canisters (ala ome LTR).

Finally, and most importantly to me, is long term durability. Bilsteins, unless something physically breaks, will last the lifetime of the vehicle. I have seen many BMW's with 300,000+ miles on their bilsteins and the shocks still work great. OME shocks seem to be good for 40,000-50,000 miles, I have seen numerous people here complaining they need to replace them. To their credit, OME appears to replace them without question, but I don't want to waste the time and hassle on replacing a product when I can get one that works just as well, if not better and never needs to be replaced.

 

[alia176]

Couple more points from me:

- The rear N74E shocks on my loaded 80 *feels* like they're not as tight as they used to be. They're currently three years old. I don't *seem* to have the same body control as I did last year. This was evident in Cruise Moab when I kept bottoming out the rear end. I still need to determine if the problem is from the 863 springs or the shocks. Perhaps I'm overloading the rear shocks and springs with my cargo load (rear drawer, bumper with tire carrier, empty aux gas tank, roof top tent, Engel).

-if you go with the expensive 7100's, I'd recommend to use the 400/100 valving. I have the 360/80 valving and find them a little short when fully loaded inside and a roof top tent. However, if your vehicle is loaded lightly, then afformentioned 270/55 valving should work out fine.

Ali

 

[Nay]

Couple of points on this. Reduced bushing size is not always a good thing. On an expedition truck that is heavily loaded it could lead to premature bushing failure. That is one of the main reasons the OME buishings are big.

Nay, what other shock characteristics do you think are superior to OME? See comments to Cary below. I don't want to start a pissing match, I just want the characteristics are.

I'll leave the technical monotube vs. twin tube to Cary. Purely subjective here: Compared to OME shocks, and also to shocks like Rancho 9000's, the Bilstein shocks provide the tightness and control that I personally like without any harshness. This includes corrugated roads (washboard).

One of the ongoing discussions we've had is the need for uptravel to support an 80's weight, and the issue of being "exedition loaded" vs. having a lighter rig. Seat of the pants is always subjective - I just think the Bilsteins control load better (and my rig is relatively light).

I feel particularly comfortable in making this recommendation because I have had the exact same experience on my old XJ, which was lifted 7" and had previously run OME (albeit at much lower lift height - 2" and 4"). Going to Bilsteins just created a better suspension balance for me. I have the same experience repeated on my 80, with pretty much the same exact results, right in line with my expectations. A moderately lifted 80 feels very similar to a more highly modified XJ in terms of CG, which is one of the reasons I was confident that this mod would work for me.

One comment I think is worth making is that I do not like front swaybars on lifted applications with a lot of added unsprung weight (big tires). In my experience, front swaybars can add a lot of side to side "snap" especially with shocks that are tuned to stock characteristic rebound on lifted applications. What I find is that suspensions like OME can tend to allow more lean and then hold it ("snap") which is at least what I don't like in a lifted application.

As for bushing durability:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=102631&highlight=pin+mount

See post #9 where it is reported that it is SOP in Oz to carry extra shock bushings as they are the most likely failure outside of tires.

Bilstein moves to spherical rod ends for bushings on its higher series - they apparently believe that in their higher lines that less bushing is more.

I fail to see how a loose or tight shock mount is going to make the truck bottom out less or more. If you hit a bump and the suspension compresses with the shock mount loose, it should just push against both inside bushing and the shock will do it's job. I can see if it is really loose, like 1/2" of play that on the rebound you might loose some dampening due to the free travel when the shock mounts move from being compressed to extended.

I agree on paper, but in reality there seems to be something to allowing even a small bit of "undampened" motion prior to the shock engaging. Especially with such a heavy rig. All I can say is that it made a huge difference - whether or not that is purely a characteristic of Bilsteins or not is open to debate, so I probably shouldn't have painted with such a broad brush despite my own experience that OME shocks allow more suspension motion than 5100's.

I am not sure sc40 has 3/3.5" of lift. He mentioned 851's on the front with a spacer. TJM bumper and winch. Maybe it is 850's. I also think you need to qualify that flares play and issue as does the springs possibly becoming unseated.

Agreed, which is why I suggested that you have to measure to ensure you are getting what you want. Brake line extension, swaybar drops, unloaded spring length and other factors are all considerations in increasing down travel, which is precisely why OME uses the same shocks on Heavy as on Stock Height.

Just to qualify, I am not bashing Bilstein, just want to get the facts out and peoples opinions on why they are better. Nay has done some great testing, however ride quality if very subjective. What works for one does not work for another, but facts about shock construction, features etc is a given. I would be the first to admit that when we get to the taller lifts OME is not the No1 choice for us, but it is a direct bolt in solution. We are working on a longer travel shocks that has more dampening to help with taller trucks.

Maybe I need to drive Nay's truck and see what the oopla is about. Nay, we are doing Independance in a couple of weeks. Want to go

Hell No on Independence . I don't get anywhere near that trail.

I'm also not bashing OME, I just don't think it is a suspension biased to rock crawling due to tires size limitations and general design parameters. The J/L combo is much more biased to more serious offroading, but it is also not a "kit" and you do have to start thinking about other parameters, at which point I at least start thinking about OME alternatives because you can do better.

What is great about OME, shocks and all, is that it is a kit and all you have to do is install it and not think about anything else. No brake lines, no coil seating, and whether you think it is the highest quality kit or not, it does work together as a system to improve on the factory suspension.

I think this is a healthy debate, if for no other reason than the 80 market is ready to move beyond OME (at least in part), just like most if not all other markets eventually move beyond OME. It is no secret that people report better driving characteristics on taller lifts than OME, and that suggests that both springs and shocks can be improved because the taller kits, all things being equal, shouldn't have better baseline driving characteristics.

So we shouldn't look at this like it's the next best thing to sliced bread, but rather an indication that the 80 market is gaining "tuners" who know enough to choose products that improve on the pure bolt-on baseline and are willing to pursue various components to build a system that works best for them.

Nay

 

[sc40]

i am still wanting to know about the size of the stock shock stud. i hate to bug, but i dont have the two stock shocks and cannot really measure. any help would be greatly appericiated. and i do like the discussion about up v. down travel. The way that i see it is travel is travel. up or down. i would like more down travel so i can fit bigger tires and have more clearance at the axels (lowest point on any rig)

 

[alain173]

test

 

[Ivan80]

i am still wanting to know about the size of the stock shock stud.

If it's the eye adapter stud size you're looking for, do a google for Bilstein 5100. There are some tech sheets out there that'll show you the eye size for the shock you ordered.

I've seen this in the past but don't have time to find it again.