REALTIME: No spark after PM items
- Thread starter Fergie
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #22
Okay, we took apart the AFM and the connections were torn from when I pulled it out.
I had a buddy re-solder everything and we have reinstalled the AFM.
I am now getting CEL code 24 and 32.
The engine fires, but wont continue running.
I had a buddy re-solder everything and we have reinstalled the AFM.
I am now getting CEL code 24 and 32.
The engine fires, but wont continue running.
- Thread starter
- #23
Okay, re-re-soldered the AFM connections and checked continuity...everything functions.
The vehicle will fire, and run just fine, still showing CEL code 24 and 32.
I am going to disconnect the battery to clear the codes and see if they come back.
The vehicle will fire, and run just fine, still showing CEL code 24 and 32.
I am going to disconnect the battery to clear the codes and see if they come back.
Off-Road.Com - Toyota Tech - Diagnostic Trouble Codes
You can reset the codes by just pulling the EFI fuse for a min.
- Thread starter
- #25
In my case, this was true as well.
With the solders broken, there was no CEL on. Once the repair on the AFM was done, the CEL came on immediately on the dash.
Now, as I mention above, I have Code 24 and Code 32, IAT sensor signal and AFM sensor, respectively.
It is late, so I will get back to it tomorrow, but my plan is to leave the battery disconnected overnight and then check my hose clamps in the morning. I think I forgot to tighten one around the AFM outlet side.
right on!!! glad you got it figured out...
- Thread starter
- #28
I'll check again tonight and see if I can snap some decent pictures of it.
I havent test drove it yet, so don't know about driveability.
How much is a functioning used AFM in case this one need to be removed and resoldered?
- Thread starter
- #29
So...
Got to the vehicle after approximately 24 hours of the battery disconnected, so the codes were gone.
Started the vehicle up just fine, and took it for a spin around the block, and all was well.
Cleaned the garage up and made the drive back home. At intersections, the idle was erratic and a bit low.
On the highway, acceleration was sluggish, even for the 3FE.
I got home, and I stopped the vehicle at the garage key island. Put the vehicle in park, turned it off, pulled the key out, opened the garage gate.
Put the key back in, turned it to on(but did not start it), put it in neutral, and coasted in to my parking spot.
Came up short of the parking spot; I was at a dead stop in neutral. Put it in park, and tried starting it...NOTHING!!! It would turn over, but no spark...again.
No CEL on.
No CEL when jumpered.
I am thinking the AFM is the culprit again given the same exact symptoms as before.
Off to try and find a good condition, used AFM...again.
Got to the vehicle after approximately 24 hours of the battery disconnected, so the codes were gone.
Started the vehicle up just fine, and took it for a spin around the block, and all was well.
Cleaned the garage up and made the drive back home. At intersections, the idle was erratic and a bit low.
On the highway, acceleration was sluggish, even for the 3FE.
I got home, and I stopped the vehicle at the garage key island. Put the vehicle in park, turned it off, pulled the key out, opened the garage gate.
Put the key back in, turned it to on(but did not start it), put it in neutral, and coasted in to my parking spot.
Came up short of the parking spot; I was at a dead stop in neutral. Put it in park, and tried starting it...NOTHING!!! It would turn over, but no spark...again.
No CEL on.
No CEL when jumpered.
I am thinking the AFM is the culprit again given the same exact symptoms as before.
Off to try and find a good condition, used AFM...again.
Some random thoughts on this:
I think Gavin is on the correct trail by replacing the AFM with a known good one. I have one from an FJ62 that was pulled off in a scrap yard. Unknown condition, but it looks unmolested. It is yours to use for diagnostic purposes if you wish.
As far as the AFM causing a "no CE light" condition, in NORMAL UNMOLESTED circumstances it should NOT cause this. However if there is an internal short between the pins that feed the ECU in the AFM, all bets are off. The ECU wants to see a resistive load on these 3 pins. If they're shorted to ground or each other or to the +12 on pin 2 in the AFM, there's no telling what the ECU will do, and we have seen the results. In short, I haven’t a clue.
A quick test would be to pull off the connector on the AFM and turn the key to ON and see if the CE light comes on. I just did this as a test and it made no difference with regards to the CE light on my truck. That would pinpoint the AFM as the culprit and takes 30 seconds to do.
As previously stated in another post within this thread, there is no need to pull battery terminals to clear diagnostic codes. Simply pull the 15 amp EFI fuse located on the left fender under the bonnet. Leave it out for a while and that should clear your CE lamp. If it continues to come on when running then check the codes it is displaying against the FSM.
I think Gavin is on the correct trail by replacing the AFM with a known good one. I have one from an FJ62 that was pulled off in a scrap yard. Unknown condition, but it looks unmolested. It is yours to use for diagnostic purposes if you wish.
As far as the AFM causing a "no CE light" condition, in NORMAL UNMOLESTED circumstances it should NOT cause this. However if there is an internal short between the pins that feed the ECU in the AFM, all bets are off. The ECU wants to see a resistive load on these 3 pins. If they're shorted to ground or each other or to the +12 on pin 2 in the AFM, there's no telling what the ECU will do, and we have seen the results. In short, I haven’t a clue.
A quick test would be to pull off the connector on the AFM and turn the key to ON and see if the CE light comes on. I just did this as a test and it made no difference with regards to the CE light on my truck. That would pinpoint the AFM as the culprit and takes 30 seconds to do.
As previously stated in another post within this thread, there is no need to pull battery terminals to clear diagnostic codes. Simply pull the 15 amp EFI fuse located on the left fender under the bonnet. Leave it out for a while and that should clear your CE lamp. If it continues to come on when running then check the codes it is displaying against the FSM.
With the AFM disconnected the fuel pump will not run unless you jump it out on the diagnostic connector on the firewall. We've had this discussion in the past about some trucks having the fuel pump continue to run without the AFM connected. This is most likely due to a shorted circuit opening relay or some other fault. The fuel pump should NOT run without either the closure from the AFM or the key in the START position. This is a potentially lethal condition in the event of an accident or rollover.
If your truck runs without the AFM connected you should fix that ASAP. It was not intended to do so from the factory.
If your truck runs without the AFM connected you should fix that ASAP. It was not intended to do so from the factory.
OK, then you should find out why your fuel pump continues to run after the control logic turns it off. Like I said, it's not supposed to do that. If the FP is energized by simply turning the key to ON, that is WRONG.
The FP should only be energized when you are cranking the starter and after the motor is actually running. The fact that yours and others does this doesn't make it OK. It is a bad thing and could have undesirable effects in the event of a front end collision.
As far as a Kia goes, I have no idea. I'm not looking at the schematic for a 1997 Kia right now. I am however looking at the schematic for a 1991 FJ80 Land Cruiser, and have also verified that my truck will stumble and die as if the FP shut down when I remove the AFM connector.
The FP should only be energized when you are cranking the starter and after the motor is actually running. The fact that yours and others does this doesn't make it OK. It is a bad thing and could have undesirable effects in the event of a front end collision.
As far as a Kia goes, I have no idea. I'm not looking at the schematic for a 1997 Kia right now. I am however looking at the schematic for a 1991 FJ80 Land Cruiser, and have also verified that my truck will stumble and die as if the FP shut down when I remove the AFM connector.
- Thread starter
- #36
CJF - I'll check tonight.
I've got another MAF on order and will have it tomorrow.
I hope that with all this trouble shooting, we can add some more information to Jon's 3FE diagnostic page.
I've got another MAF on order and will have it tomorrow.
I hope that with all this trouble shooting, we can add some more information to Jon's 3FE diagnostic page.
- Thread starter
- #37
Well, I'm thoroughly frustrated with this thing!
I came home and did the following:
1. Pulled the EFI fuse and cleared any codes. Tried starting the vehicle with everything connected as it should be. It would turn over, but would not fire. I checked the codes and pulled a 14, 24 and 32.
2. Pulled the EFI fuse and cleared all the codes. Disconnected the AFM and tried starting it. Same results as above. This time I pulled codes 14, 24 and 31.
3. I jumpered the fuel pump circuit with the AFM connected and disconnected with the same results as #1 both time.
4. I checked resistance across the terminals on the AFM and did not get the correct readings, so I pulled it to try and work on it. I removed the male side of the plug, cleaned the solder off as best I could, and resoldered it. I had continuity between the male prongs and the circuit board side, but could not get the correct diagnostic readings as far as Ohms go.
5. I took the AFM back down to the vehicle and connected the plug to it. With the plate fully close and the key in the on position, I didnt hear anything, but when I would open the plate a bit, I would hear what I think is the fuel lines building pressure.
6. I checked for spark, and again didnt have anything.
I think I am back at square one with this thing and am dumbfounded as to what to do.
I need help as I am about to have it AAA towed to the Dealership and let them deal with it!
Please help!
Thanks,
G
I came home and did the following:
1. Pulled the EFI fuse and cleared any codes. Tried starting the vehicle with everything connected as it should be. It would turn over, but would not fire. I checked the codes and pulled a 14, 24 and 32.
2. Pulled the EFI fuse and cleared all the codes. Disconnected the AFM and tried starting it. Same results as above. This time I pulled codes 14, 24 and 31.
3. I jumpered the fuel pump circuit with the AFM connected and disconnected with the same results as #1 both time.
4. I checked resistance across the terminals on the AFM and did not get the correct readings, so I pulled it to try and work on it. I removed the male side of the plug, cleaned the solder off as best I could, and resoldered it. I had continuity between the male prongs and the circuit board side, but could not get the correct diagnostic readings as far as Ohms go.
5. I took the AFM back down to the vehicle and connected the plug to it. With the plate fully close and the key in the on position, I didnt hear anything, but when I would open the plate a bit, I would hear what I think is the fuel lines building pressure.
6. I checked for spark, and again didnt have anything.
I think I am back at square one with this thing and am dumbfounded as to what to do.
I need help as I am about to have it AAA towed to the Dealership and let them deal with it!
Please help!
Thanks,
G
Back to the beginning...
Is the CE light on when key is in the ON position? No CE = no sparky.
Did removing the plug from the AFM effect the CE light?
If the CE light is on then the EFI circuit is energized and you should be getting spark. You need to check for spark. Possible bad igniter/coil. Igniters can go horribly intermittant and there is no check in the FSM.
Another possibility (remote) is the field coils in the distributor. There is a check procedure both in the FSM and on my website.
Again, check for spark FIRST.
Is the CE light on when key is in the ON position? No CE = no sparky.
Did removing the plug from the AFM effect the CE light?
If the CE light is on then the EFI circuit is energized and you should be getting spark. You need to check for spark. Possible bad igniter/coil. Igniters can go horribly intermittant and there is no check in the FSM.
Another possibility (remote) is the field coils in the distributor. There is a check procedure both in the FSM and on my website.
Again, check for spark FIRST.
- Thread starter
- #39
Key in the ON position, AFM connected=CEL
" " ", AFM disconnected=CEL
Checked the for spark per the FSM and am getting the correct Ohms.
So, ignitor?
" " ", AFM disconnected=CEL
Checked the for spark per the FSM and am getting the correct Ohms.
So, ignitor?
Not sure what you did here. Please explain.