Raingear...

[gearguywb]

After too long in the military...stay away from the GI stuff. It works reasonably well but it is too heavy for the majority of applications. After a week fishing in Alaska last year where we never swa the sun, I was sold on the Arcteryx stuff. It is the most expensive out there. They make a variety of thickness and cuts but in all of them the seams are welded and taped and quality is surpassed by none. If you check around you can usually find what you need on ebay at 20-30% off retail.

 

[woody]

ordered up a set of frogg togg's last night....tried on some locally, but they didn't have the style I wanted...

lightweight, packs small, good size not only for wheelin/campin but to keep handy on the scooter for those days when the ride in is nice and the ride home isn't....

yer right, my time in the rain is limited...."most" times it's sittin in my seat under the bikini top

thanks for all the advice gang, I'll report back once they've got some use

 

[LoneStar]

I definately second Arcteryx. It costs more, but can be found for a nice discount at Sierra Trading Post or REI Outlet. Compare the construction - # of stiches per inch in the seams, against anything else.

 

[re_guderian]

Just move to a drier climate.

Amen to that.... I used to have a really good Moonstone shell that was great up in Washington. Now when it rains (about 10 hours/year) I just go outside and enjoy it without a coat...

 

[Conex]

Tried the rest, this is all I will ever use again.
http://www.henrilloyd.com/downloads.asp
Plenty of room to layer underneath, the one I have has a zip out fleece liner but cool with just a t-shirt, the hood gives you good periferal vision and they also have some of the best rubber boots out there when it comes to comfort in the wet. I use the Trimmer Jacket and bibs.
Unless you are going here http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/3/ it will be all you need.

 

[Mike S]

There are several heavy weight PVC products available - they are used by commercial fisherman. Helly Hansen is also very well regarded among the people who go to sea.

GoreTex is not especially tough or waterproof. The best recreational type rain gear I have used in my Patagonia fishing parka - very tough, breathable, fairly light. I have used it in bad weather all over - from BC brush to West Texas mesquite thickets. Still looks like new after 4 years.

M

 

[lovetoski]

Well, I guess since I've worked for the company that makes Gore-Tex(r) fabric for 18 years I outta post up an opinion...

Keep in mind a few things:
1. Waterproof (keeps water out)
2. Moisture Vapor Permeable (allows sweat to pass through to the outside)
3. Durability (how long you get to keep the above)

Rubber/PVC do a great job in keeping water out - they are very waterproof. And if made well, can be very durable. Problem is that you'll get soaked with sweat - because they are not moisture vapor permeable. If that's no biggie, these products are a great value.

Most "waterproof/breathable" products on the market today are biased towards the waterproof side, or the breathable side. You give up one to get the other.

Gore-Tex(r) products are like Landcruisers. You pay more and you get more. Not everybody understands this, not everybody appreciates this. Gore-Tex(r) products are the most durably waterproof/breathable products available on the market. Emphasis on durable.

We make fabrics that are light weight, for alpinists that need weather protection and breathabiliy, but lightweight is critical. We also make super durable - aka "bomber" fabrics - for folks who need to use their gear in the foulest/nastiest conditions every day.

The US Military specs Gore-Tex(r) fabric for nearly all the troops...footwear, jackets, pants. The best fire-fighting turnout coats have a Gore-Tex(r) liner. 98% of the people who own Gore-Tex(r) products would purchase it again.

If I didn't believe all this crap, I'd have quit a long time ago. We have a lot of competitors. Most of them use their own test data to make their point...but in the end it's about consumer satisfaction. Consumers who buy Gore-Tex(r) products once, buy it again and again.

Oh, one thing most don't know - we've designed it to be washed/dryed often. the cleaner you keep it, the more comfortable you will be. I can explain more in an additional post if anybody cares.

Believe it or not, I defend the quality of Mr T with equal vigor!

Post up with any questions - I'm not offended by any opinion, pro or con.

 

[Mike S]

Doug--

Sorry. I didn't mean to step in it.

I have used GoreTex lined boots - they work great, actually. Most of my experience with GoreTex has come while fishing or bird hunting in nasty conditions, and the stuff I had was prone to rips and wear - eventually losing it's waterproof qualities. Maybe I bought the 'lightwieght stuff'. Who makes a mil-spec type GoreTex garment?

My recommendation of PVC is based on the my experience commercial fishing. Over a good wool sweater, this is a pretty comfortable combination - bomb proof and reasonably dry.

M

 

[beaufort-fj60]

Doug,

I've had a few gortex jackets, they all seem to fail in the same way. Any area on the jacket that is subject to repetitive movements, the undercoating on the gortex deteriorates and cracks. once the fabric undercoating cracks is lets the water in and holds it like a sponge. Does the military grade fabric have a thicker undercoating. What i'm calling undercoating is the rubbery textured substance on the inside face of the fabric.

 

[Heffenoche]

Doug I have a Northface Gore-Tex jacket that has seved me well and is still in very good shape but does need some light cleaning. What is the best way to clean this jacket?

 

[lovetoski]

Doug--

Sorry. I didn't mean to step in it.

I have used GoreTex lined boots - they work great, actually. Most of my experience with GoreTex has come while fishing or bird hunting in nasty conditions, and the stuff I had was prone to rips and wear - eventually losing it's waterproof qualities. Maybe I bought the 'lightwieght stuff'. Who makes a mil-spec type GoreTex garment?

My recommendation of PVC is based on the my experience commercial fishing. Over a good wool sweater, this is a pretty comfortable combination - bomb proof and reasonably dry.

M

Mike,
No apologies needed. All questions are fair questions. Quite a few Gore-Tex(r) garments in North America are lightweight - this is what the market requests. Heavier stuff is a little harder to find. Try Hunting/Fishing suppliers and Sailing. Examples are Cabela's, Bass Pro, Browning, Henry Lloyd. All of these have lighterweight products too, but also have heavy duty stuff. In general, 3L products are the most rugged - but tend to be stiffer/noisier.

PVC/wool is a time proven combo. It works because wool retains up to 80% of it's insulating qualities when wet. The wool does get wet from sweat, even if you're just standing around - it's called "insensible perspiration." That is, your body sweats all the time, at a low level.

Comfort outdoors is all about managing the rate of heat-loss. Water conducts heat 23 times faster than air. If your clothing is wet (either from rain, or from sweat) then you'll have a faster rate of heat loss than if it's dry. Fleece absorbs less water than wool, so an equivalent thickness of fleece will be a better insulator than wool when used in real world conditions simply because it will not transfer heat as quickly. But, most wool sweaters are thicker than most fleece - and thicker = warmer.

With fishing, esp commercial fishing in SE alaska, the rap on Gore-Tex(r) garments is due to care, and the impact of care on comfort. More on that in a post below.

 

[lovetoski]

Doug,

I've had a few gortex jackets, they all seem to fail in the same way. Any area on the jacket that is subject to repetitive movements, the undercoating on the gortex deteriorates and cracks. once the fabric undercoating cracks is lets the water in and holds it like a sponge. Does the military grade fabric have a thicker undercoating. What i'm calling undercoating is the rubbery textured substance on the inside face of the fabric.

Hmmm...tricky question. We are exceptionally proud of how durably waterproof our Gore-Tex(r) products are. They are not perfect, we do get returns, but not many. Three possibilities come to mind:
1. It's a genuine Gore-Tex(r) jacket, and it wore out. In this case you should call our customer service team (1-800-Goretex) and they'll help out. If it turns out that the failure is due to a defect in our product, we'll help you get a new garment.

2. Sometimes garments are sold as if they use Gore-Tex(r) fabric, when actually they don't. This happens more often than we'd like. Does the garment in question have a Gore-Tex(r) label on it? If yes, then look to either #1 or #3. If no Gore-Tex(r) label, then you may have been misled. Most of the products that claim to be "just as good as Gore-Tex(r) but cheaper" use a polyurethan coating. These have poor wet-flex, and are susceptible to cold-cracking. Both cause leakage.

3. Most of the calls we get about Gore-Tex(r) garments and leakage are actually due to care. I'll hit this specifically in the next post.

If none of these answered your question, post back and I'll figure something out.

 

[lovetoski]

Doug I have a Northface Gore-Tex jacket that has seved me well and is still in very good shape but does need some light cleaning. What is the best way to clean this jacket?

OK, time to talk about "care and feeding" of Gore-Tex(r) garments. We get lots of calls to our customer service team, most of them are from folks who think that their Gore-Tex(r) garment has worn out, that it's leaking. Sometimes it is leaking. But in the vast majority of the calls we get, the user doesn't know how to care for the garment.

You paid a lot, so it's probably really hard to take care of -right? Wrong. It's easy. Just follow these easy steps:
1. Wash - use any soap/detergent you have around.
2. Wash a second time with no soap - this removes all the residual surfactant (a wetting agent in all soaps/detergents).
3. Dry in the dryer on medium heat.
4. Sprinkle water on the face fabric, if it beads up, you are done. If it doesn't bead up well (little beads of water are best) then use any one of the various aftermarket water-repellant treatments.

Here's the background explanation.
All waterproof/breathable fabrics have a waterrepellant finish. The trade calls these a DWR (durable water repellant). They are not as durable as we would like - maybe 10 - 20 wash cycles.
DWR is a flouropolymer coating applied to the face fabric. It repels water. However it's easily overwhelmed by dirt, campfire smoke, cigarette smoke, etc. Washing (even without soap) almost always makes it work better.
A dryer re-energizes the DWR, which restores it to near new condition. There is lots of DWR polymer deep within the yarn bundles of the fabric. The heat of the dryer remelts the polymer, and it then flows out to the surface of the fabric. Kinda cool actually.
Eventually there is none left, thus the need to reapply.
For most people, most of the time, there is plenty of DWR left in their garment, it just is covered up by grease/dirt/etc. Proper wash/dry will fix it.

So, inquiring minds should ask why any care is needed anyway? Very simple. It's all about comfort and heat-loss. As I mentioned in a post above, water conducts heat 23 times faster than air. If the face fabric is wet, then the shell of the garment conducts heat away from your body 23 times faster than if you still had fully effective DWR.
Here's the wierd part. Skin has nerves that detect heat/cold and pressure. We have no nerves that detect wet. "Wet" is an interpretation done by the brain. So, if you feel cold (due to the 23 times faster heat-loss) and you look at the fabric and it looks darker, then you conclude it's leaking. Usually it's not leaking, but you are cold/uncomfortable none the less.
The reason this is such a pronounced effect with Gore-Tex(r) garments is that they are so incredibly comfortable when the DWR is 100%, then when wetted out the difference is very noticable.
I recommend doing the care listed above. If the garment is still not performing to your satisfaction, then call our customer service team. They are there to help.

HTH?

 

[cruzer]

Doug,

I have been wondering how to clean my jacket (LL Bean All conditions) that is is Gore Tex (r) anyway. I have owned it now since fall of 98 and have NEVER washed it. Not once (yeah kind of smells now). This is all awsome information. I will be washing it this weekend and seeing how it works. I need it for sunday as i think it's supposed to rain here and i have to work outside for work.

Stew

 

[Gumby]

My motorcycle rain gear is the shiznit.

I think it's made by FirstGear

 

[beaufort-fj60]

Hmmm...tricky question. We are exceptionally proud of how durably waterproof our Gore-Tex(r) products are. They are not perfect, we do get returns, but not many. Three possibilities come to mind:
1. It's a genuine Gore-Tex(r) jacket, and it wore out. In this case you should call our customer service team (1-800-Goretex) and they'll help out. If it turns out that the failure is due to a defect in our product, we'll help you get a new garment.

2. Sometimes garments are sold as if they use Gore-Tex(r) fabric, when actually they don't. This happens more often than we'd like. Does the garment in question have a Gore-Tex(r) label on it? If yes, then look to either #1 or #3. If no Gore-Tex(r) label, then you may have been misled. Most of the products that claim to be "just as good as Gore-Tex(r) but cheaper" use a polyurethan coating. These have poor wet-flex, and are susceptible to cold-cracking. Both cause leakage.

3. Most of the calls we get about Gore-Tex(r) garments and leakage are actually due to care. I'll hit this specifically in the next post.

If none of these answered your question, post back and I'll figure something out.

well, I guess it's Gore-Tex but you never know. the jackets I have had problems with were Patagonia brand, and north face brand. Like Mike S, I had the thin rain gear type jacket. Basic construction of both jackets were a Gore-Tex outer layer and a very thin mesh inner layer. You could plainly see the inside of the Gore-Tex through the mesh and the wear areas I mentioned before (cracks / dryer looking area / lost sheen).

Maybe I read into what you posted before. If I had a Gore-Tex jacket and it failed, your company would replace it? or I would have to go through Patagonia or north face.

 

[lovetoski]

well, I guess it's Gore-Tex but you never know. the jackets I have had problems with were Patagonia brand, and north face brand. Like Mike S, I had the thin rain gear type jacket. Basic construction of both jackets were a Gore-Tex outer layer and a very thin mesh inner layer. You could plainly see the inside of the Gore-Tex through the mesh and the wear areas I mentioned before (cracks / dryer looking area / lost sheen).

Maybe I read into what you posted before. If I had a Gore-Tex jacket and it failed, your company would replace it? or I would have to go through Patagonia or north face.

Our promise to consumers is that Gore-Tex(r) products are Guarenteed To Keep You Dry. With this promise comes an objective to satisfy everybody who buys our product. Please call 1-800-431-GORE and talk to the folks on our customer service team.

If it's a Gore-Tex(r) garment, and if the problem is with the Gore-Tex(r) fabric, then we would love to work with you directly. Sometimes this means replacement, sometimes repair, sometimes just cleaning (per the post I did on care and feeding). What we do depends on your situation.

Both Patagonia and The North Face have Gore-Tex(r) garments in their line, but both also use other materials. Both companies have good warrenty programs, regardless of what material was used in the garment. If you prefer to work with them directly, that's fine with Gore of course, but I can't speak exactly to how they would handle it.

HTH. Post back please if I'm not answering fully.

 

[Bryan E.]

Doug, Do you have any knowledge on the military gore tex gear as far as construction, quality of the gore tex as in heaviest duty gore tex or whatever.?

I understand the guy that say's it's to heavy, but so am I. I am just ruggedly built and so is my Cruiser and I like my gear that way as well. I couldn't afford to buy the super quality, high dollar stuff, but found that the real GI gore tex availible on Ebay can sometimes be bought as cheap as $35 for brand new pants or jacket. You have to keep watching the auctions for this, but I've bought 4 pieces of the gear in this price range, all either brand new with tags or used, but looks brand new. Go see what you can buy in Gore Tex at any camping store for this kind of money. A local surplus store here in Dallas sells the GI stuff for $189 a piece and sells a lot of it for this price. It does work well and I have worn it for hours in some rain storms and I stayed dry. I even wore it shopping inside a store for an hour when it was raining outside, thinking I would get hot and start sweating and have to take it off, but was suprised to find I stayed cool and dry.

I wouldn't knock anybody's choice of buying what they can afford, whether you agree that it's the best or not. Some wouldn't want it just because of the camo, but I will say the stuff works.

 

[spressomon]

Not a total hijack...but just a comment how North Face's warranty service has degraded over the years:

I have a NF HD large gear bag. I bought it new many years ago...back before NF was answering to shareholders. Their warranty was simple (like Patagonia's still is today): Any problems with the item as long as you own it and they took care of it: Plain, easy & simple.

Well this same bag evidently was made with cotton thread stitching (or?) because the stitching that hold the seams together is failing: Specifically the thread has rotted. This bag has not seen alot of use nor has it had exposure to water...and it is always stored properly. So get this: North Face responded to my e-mail (with photos of the failing seam/thread) that I need to send it to them...they in turn will repair the bad seem/stitching and return it to me for $75.00 (!!!) not including the shipping to get it to their warranty center. Oh yea...if it needs cleaning when they receive it they'll tack on another $20.00 (which they have done automatically in the past with other items that were sent to them even though they were laundered before they were sent to NF).

Happened to pick up the xlarge Patagonia Burrito bag that was on sale for $15.00 more than NF was going to charge me to fix THEIR defect. And they have an iron clad lifetime guarantee (I have tested their's too!).

No more NF for me!

 

[Bryan E.]

Hey Spressomon, what are you going to do with the old NF bag now? If it needs a good home, someone who would fix it themselves, let me know.