Perplexing poor idling, rich smelling, hesitating, with excellent full pedal performance problem. (1 Viewer)

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Joined
Apr 19, 2008
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Location
San Diego
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www.phalconoverland.com
I know, I should just floor it everywhere I go... just hard on the driving record. Here is the DL...

- The vehicle starts and revs to 2k RPM, then drops and stumbles severely stalling multiple times until it warms and after many minutes and applications of the throttle then settles on around 1k RPM. It seems like it's too lean at startup. Warmed up and in gear, it drops to 6-700 RPM and gets a rapid idle oscillation. Lots of hesitation at partial throttle with excellent power at full throttle.
- The FMS ECU voltage checks all checked out except for the VS values which reflect the AFM flapper door not opening enough. THW was in range at ambient as well as engine warmed up.
- Initial checks show out of range AFM values in the lean direction (high voltage, flapper door not opening enough) with O2 voltages in the very rich direction (60-75mV). - O2 VF1 and 2 voltages (both are similar) settle in around 60-75mV at 2500RPM . Both old and new AFM's have the same resistances. Both old and new O2 sensors reflected similar voltages. AFM Supply voltage is spot on. . The vehicle exhaust smells rich.
- Manifold vacuum measures good and extensive spraying for vacuum leaks (multiple cans of carb cleaner) reveals no leaks. My engine is looking cleaner.
- Compression is 150psi +/- a few across all 6.
- ISC, AFM, O2 sensors, fuel pressure regulator, and Water temp sensor replaced, all are working and none impacted symptoms when changed. New plugs, cap, rotor, and wires all replaced and did not impact symptoms.
-- Fuel pressure has not been measured, need to get a higher pressure gauge. However, excellent full throttle performance suggests fuel delivery is adequate for full power and so should be for partial throttle loads.
- EGR valve was removed, inspected, operated with a vacuum pump, reinstalled, verified to work (open/close when it should).
- Unplugging both O2 sensors to presumably force the engine open loop causes the idle to drop to around 650RPM but with a rapid oscillation. Plugging them back in, the engine increases the idle back to 1k to 1,100 RPM with some hint of the oscillation.

- Hypothesis 1, air hose leak. Even though it has been thoroughly inspected and sprayed while running showing no signs of leakage it will be replaced tomorrow. Replaced with new, no improvement.
- Hypothesis 2: Undetectable air leak somewhere other than the intake tube downstream of the AFM but upstream of the throttle valve. However, that would typically create a lean condition, the O2 sensors are reading lean (low V) but the truck smells rich suggesting the ECU is overcompensating.
- Hypothesis 3: Bad ECM
- Hypothesis 4: Bad harness possibly ground leakage causing the injectors to over inject.


If I could buy a new harness for an OBD1 1FZE I'd probably just do it but I can't. If the intake tube doesn't do the trick I will look for another ECU.

If anyone has any divine inspiration please share the wisdom.

Frank
 
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Here are the initial voltage checks.

1635633925571.png
 
AFM test... I did test fully warmed up, need to enter that into the sheet...

1635634187350.png
 
I'd go with vacuum leak somewhere, and unmetered air causing a rough idle. (Although, this doesn't explain rich exhaust smell).

Check PCV grommet and hoses, dipstick tube seals, oil cap seals, all small vac hoses ($20 will buy you more than enough quality goods to change them all out).
Grab a roll of PVC duct tape (read the prop 65 warning and decide, no kids, or smooth running cruiser :lol:), tightly wrap the intake tube with tape as a temporary way of eliminating or confirming it as an issue.

The other thing I'd be looking at is EFI harness connectors and wire condition. But, full throttle performance being OK suggests this is maybe not an issue.

I replaced harness clips on the injectors. The clips are >$3 ea from Toyota, and took 5 minutes per clip to replace. (actually, to be fair, I had top manifold off when I did this)
 
If your fan clutch is working well, then all that spraying brake cleaner will do is cleaning the engine.
My interwebs guess is extra air/vacuum leak + a leaky injector...
 
I had some similar symptoms a few months ago. My MAF connector was not seated properly in the sensor.

Once I got it seated flush and all the way secure my problems went away. YMMV.
 
My fan clutch is fine but I have tracked down many air leaks with the spray method on vehicles with working fan clutches and if you hit the leak it will suck in the vapors and rev. Also the vac gauge is in the green though the ecu is idling the engine at 1k, not 650.. Does anyone know the vacuum spec? I can't seem to find it.

Frank
 
I had some similar symptoms a few months ago. My MAF connector was not seated properly in the sensor.

Once I got it seated flush and all the way secure my problems went away. YMMV.
I have removed mine a few times and cleaned the pins. I have back probed the pins for voltage measuremens. The AFM by itself checks out. When running the voltages suggest the door isn't opening up fully. I just don't know why.

Frank
 
I'd go with vacuum leak somewhere, and unmetered air causing a rough idle. (Although, this doesn't explain rich exhaust smell).

Check PCV grommet and hoses, dipstick tube seals, oil cap seals, all small vac hoses ($20 will buy you more than enough quality goods to change them all out).
Grab a roll of PVC duct tape (read the prop 65 warning and decide, no kids, or smooth running cruiser :lol:), tightly wrap the intake tube with tape as a temporary way of eliminating or confirming it as an issue.

The other thing I'd be looking at is EFI harness connectors and wire condition. But, full throttle performance being OK suggests this is maybe not an issue.

I replaced harness clips on the injectors. The clips are >$3 ea from Toyota, and took 5 minutes per clip to replace. (actually, to be fair, I had top manifold off when I did this)
I have been having rodent issues so the harness is suspect. I was measuring voltages in hopes to narrow down issues. I can't find a new harness for the obd1 so might have to just teat into it.

Frank
 
How does the sheathing on the throttle cable look? A sticky cable will mess with the IAC circuit.

Checked it out. The cable is not new but the throttle has the requisite bit of slack and is resting on its stops.

Frank
 
I had this with a bad lambda sensor.

They last about 80,000 miles ish?

I would replace the first O2 sensor.
 
I went through the TPS checks again. I had done it prior but didn't have the spreadsheet so wanted to get the actual values in there. Upon inspection I found this gem...

1635711062361.jpeg


View attachment 2826422
I had this with a bad lambda sensor.

They last about 80,000 miles ish?

I would replace the first O2 sensor.
I replaced both, the new ones produce the same voltages as the old. The prior set only had about 40k on them.

Frank
 
There is the other angle...
1635783392194.jpeg
 
I think that’s the EGR in the first pic. Looks like the wiring loom is a little unwell.
 
I think that’s the EGR in the first pic. Looks like the wiring loom is a little unwell.

Agreed. A friend offered up a harness in good condition. I am going to spend this coming weekend pulling the old one and making sure what goes back in there is in good condition.

Frank
 
I updated the first post to correct the O2 sensor voltage that low voltage indicates excess oxygen so pushes the ECU to a rich condition which aligns with the strong smell of gas in the exhaust and that replacing the intake tube did not make a difference. (OXYGEN SENSORS: HOW TO DIAGNOSE & REPLACE - https://www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm)

I guess even though these are new Denso O2 sensors I have to suspect them if they are reading a lean signal when the system smells rich. Or, somehow the system is lean but just smells rich.

Frank
 
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I am so bummed. I ended up snapping the fuel pressure fitting off in the rail so at that point I figured the heck with it and pulled the intake. I changed all injectors, every vacuum hose, gasket, as well as the wiring harness which I added extra heat shielding. I also added 2 new knock sensors. I finally got it all back together today and zero change. It just can't find a speed at which to idle. It flairs, stumbles, stalls, restart it, flares again.... repeat with no codes thrown. If I say unplug the O2's or the TPS, it will go open loop and idle perfectly. I have tried a known good computer, no change. I will throw and egr valve at it and maybe a new distributor but at this point I am down to just throwing parts at it.

Frank
 
Long ago I had a wild stumbling problem. Turned out my old worn throttle cable was out of adjustment, thus when I checked my ignition timing it seemed right, but in reality once the cable was corrected it was off.
My new idling problem now (I assume) is my bad valve seals and consequently (still assuming) fouled O2 sensors. Haven't had a chance to test my IACV but I've had an itching suspicion that it is in need of replacement.
Once in awhile I'll have a wonky low idle. Ah lots to do, lots to do.
 

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