Passive water/meth injection system (1 Viewer)

[Ophir]

Hey friends,

I got my passive water/meth injection system going on my 12h-t and it is certainly a treat watching EGTs go down or only rise by 1-2 degrees at a time on long inclines.

Prerequisites:

1) A device that triggers a relay on high EGTs (I'm using an Auber SYL-2813 )
2) A fogging nozzle, I'm using a 16.8 GPH one from McMaster Carr
3) Brass Barbed Hose Fitting 90 Degree Elbow Adapter for 1/4" Hose ID, 1/8 NPTF Female
4) 1/4" ID clear hose
5) Headlight washer reservoir or other water reservoir
6) Fine mesh to use as a filter on the reservoir fill

My initial plan was to flow the fog by the Auber triggering the headlight washer pump when EGT hits 900F. In testing, I realized that 16.8 gph was much too high and I actually needed around 3 gph for this size engine/boost.

video of headlight washer pump connected to the 16.8gph fogging nozzle

I plumbed the system (without the pump connected) and realized that she was drinking down the juice all on her own! Water would creep up the tube towards the intake as I throttled up... so I went for a spin. Turns out the boost going through the intake plenum creates sufficient vacuum to draw the water from the reservoir with great results! EGT decreases or goes up very slowly on long inclines. With the setup as it was, the engine was sucking down the entire reservoir after about an hour's worth of driving. A gallon of windshield washer fluid (30% methanol) costs about $3 per so that was not going to work.

Test run up a long incline using this system - https://youtu.be/mPN55twfg4M


To solve this problem I found an inexpensive ($11) 12v solenoid driven valve and some barbs which I put inline to the flow. I configured the Auber relay to trigger the valve when EGTs are > 900F and to stay open until they drop to 850F. I've noticed that steady-state freeway driving I'm usually around ~800F.

I drove around with this setup all day today and am thrilled to see that my water reservoir level has barely dropped.

The preliminary results are good and I'll provide more information as I learn it.

 

[cody c]

I’m liking it. Noticeable difference in power?

 

[Ophir]

I’m liking it. Noticeable difference in power?

Nothing massive but I’m still getting used to how well she climbs.

I’m liking it. Noticeable difference in power?

I’ve noticed that hills that I could only take at 55mph-ish I can now do at 65mph EGT wise. The power was there, just needed to be unlocked by cooling.

 

[cody c]

Hmm. You should consider an inter cooler of some sort too. A water to air top mount would be cool.

ive also heard of some folks getting phenomenal results from a good port and polish on the the exhaust side of the cylinder head.

 

[Ophir]

Oh I have.

Not excited about a front mount as I don’t want cut holes / shave the grill. water to air top mount could be interesting.

Do you any more info re the port/polish?

 

[cody c]

Oh I have.

Not excited about a front mount as I don’t want cut holes / shave the grill. water to air top mount could be interesting.

Do you any more info re the port/polish?

Port/polish is a bit of work, YouTube would describe it better but essentially you pull the cylinder head and run a die grinder in the ports or channels that the exhaust flows through to smooth out the casting and polish to smooth and flatten (and decrease surface area) for exhaust gassed to flow easier and transfer less heat. I think some people even Cera-coat which creates like a Teflon surface so soot doesn’t build up and it acts as an insulator.

it’s the heat transfer through the head from your exhaust gasses that build up engine temps, also keeping the heat up to the inlet side of the turbo creates a denser gas.

wrapping your exhaust for a couple feet after the turbo and turbo blankets also helps with heat soak and decreasing intake air temps to some degree. I noticed a difference with mine, had it pitted and polished a decade ago, installed a top mount IC and exhaust blankets/wraps. If nothing else it decreases enginecompartment temps which is good for the longevity of anything rubber or plastic (like wiring)

 

[Ophir]

I'm really pleased with the results from a 2 hour run up to the local mountains.

Here's a good example of the behavior going up a long incline. Notice what happens when the red high alarm light goes on at 900 (this opens the valve to the water reservoir and starts the vacuum suction into the intake). It takes a bit of time for the water to reach the intake but then EGTs are noticeably impacted.

https://youtu.be/uiiJ88am1f0

Based on what I'm experiencing, I'm not seeing the need for an intercooler at this point.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Based on what I'm experiencing, I'm not seeing the need for an intercooler at this point.

Water/meth injection aka chemical cooling is fair superior to any type of physical intercooler. I spray mine with a high pressure pump and atomising nozzles and can instantly drop 150-200 degree Celsius pre-turbo EGT when I activate it.

I like your passive setup, seems to be working well for such a cheap and simple system.

Here's my system on my 1HDFT 1HD-FT water injection testing

 

[jblueridge]

Yes. You’re setup and results are awesome. If I can find space for a reservoir, I might try the same.

 

[arnott1t]

pre turbo could be hard on compressor blades.... water droplets even as tiny as they are hitting a compressor wheel at 100k RPM's can hurt....

 

[Ophir]

pre turbo could be hard on compressor blades.... water droplets even as tiny as they are hitting a compressor wheel at 100k RPM's can hurt....

Absolutely a concern. That said, the water is being pulled through a very small fogging (0.04”) orifice. I’m going to evaluate the compressor blades after a year of running this setup.

 

[badusmaximus]

This is really cool. Kinda wish I had just gone for the auber setup now. Do you find any spray on the inside of your air filter due to the nozzle placement? I think if I were to do this I would route the outlet to the post turbo side. Also considering just teeing off the headlight washer outlet before the pump if its possible.

I'm going to wait until next summer before I do anything crazy. Seems like a high bang low buck mod especially if hauling lots. Do keep us posted on results.

 

[Ophir]

This is really cool. Kinda wish I had just gone for the auber setup now. Do you find any spray on the inside of your air filter due to the nozzle placement? I think if I were to do this I would route the outlet to the post turbo side. Also considering just teeing off the headlight washer outlet before the pump if its possible.

I'm going to wait until next summer before I do anything crazy. Seems like a high bang low buck mod especially if hauling lots. Do keep us posted on results.

None. Air filter is dry as a bone every time I check. You could certainly do both of those things.

Will do. I’ve found that going over steep mountain passes she’ll consume most of the reservoir but I just fill it back up with water before I head back home. Bonus is that I'm able to add ~10mph while still keeping around a max EGT of ~1150. One more data point, I've turned up my boost to 16 psi.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

@Ophir , nice work!

I've been running meth/water injection for about 7 years now and have discovered a few interesting things. First off, I'm running a 4GPH nozzle on a 2LTE. I'm using a Devil's Own adjustable controller with 250psi pump and it's set to only come on at 15psi+ boost pressure. Mainly because I'm just using a windshield washer reservoir, and it runs dry pretty quick otherwise.

Anyhow, a few things to keep in mind.

- Nozzle placement can have a huge impact on how evenly the cylinders are getting the mist. On my first setup, it turned out only one cylinder was getting the bulk of the injection. Because the high velocity of the compressed air in my intercooler piping was flinging all the mist to one side (after pipe bend) and lining it up with one cylinder in the intake manifold inlet. Ideally one would have a small nozzle at each intake runner to make sure things are perfectly even.

- Too much injection heading towards a given cylinder can under high load circumstances lead to a cylinder wash effect. I also had this problem. It caused my piston rings to interfere with the cylinder wall on one cylinder and ruined it. I was running high oil temps at the time, and a 10w30 instead of 15w40 oil also - this definitely aggravated the problem.

- Water introduced during diesel combustion in a diesel engine eats away and pits the cast iron of the head and block. This is clearly visible on any number of IDI diesels that have had cracked cylinder heads (leaking coolant into cylinders) for a while. When I had my engine apart, I noticed this was happening (very subtly) from my meth/water injection system.

- This may only be a high comp IDI issue, but I've noticed when I run 50/50 water/meth, I get knocking as the meth pre-ignites before diesel injection. I can get away with 50/50 when it's winter time, but in summer I have to run 70/30 water/meth to prevent this problem.

- On my IDI, I actually don't notice much EGT drop with the water/meth on. Maybe 50F maximum. Not sure why.

- Use a check-valve. Mine failed at one point, and filled the intake manifold with fluid. It ran into one cylinder and hydro-locked my engine on start-up. Luckly there was no perceptible damage and I was able to get the fluid out via the glow plug holes. Or at least make sure your injection point is higher than your reservoir.

- When I do run 50/50 mix in winter, I make a lot of extra power! It's fun. I've made up to 140rwhp. Pretty darn good for an IDI 2.4.

- Despite the drawbacks, I'm still running the system. I'm just pointing out these items as something to watch for.

 

[Ophir]

@Ophir , nice work!

I've been running meth/water injection for about 7 years now and have discovered a few interesting things. First off, I'm running a 4GPH nozzle on a 2LTE. I'm using a Devil's Own adjustable controller with 250psi pump and it's set to only come on at 15psi+ boost pressure. Mainly because I'm just using a windshield washer reservoir, and it runs dry pretty quick otherwise.

Anyhow, a few things to keep in mind.

- Nozzle placement can have a huge impact on how evenly the cylinders are getting the mist. On my first setup, it turned out only one cylinder was getting the bulk of the injection. Because the high velocity of the compressed air in my intercooler piping was flinging all the mist to one side (after pipe bend) and lining it up with one cylinder in the intake manifold inlet. Ideally one would have a small nozzle at each intake runner to make sure things are perfectly even.

- Too much injection heading towards a given cylinder can under high load circumstances lead to a cylinder wash effect. I also had this problem. It caused my piston rings to interfere with the cylinder wall on one cylinder and ruined it. I was running high oil temps at the time, and a 10w30 instead of 15w40 oil also - this definitely aggravated the problem.

- Water introduced during diesel combustion in a diesel engine eats away and pits the cast iron of the head and block. This is clearly visible on any number of IDI diesels that have had cracked cylinder heads (leaking coolant into cylinders) for a while. When I had my engine apart, I noticed this was happening (very subtly) from my meth/water injection system.

- This may only be a high comp IDI issue, but I've noticed when I run 50/50 water/meth, I get knocking as the meth pre-ignites before diesel injection. I can get away with 50/50 when it's winter time, but in summer I have to run 70/30 water/meth to prevent this problem.

- On my IDI, I actually don't notice much EGT drop with the water/meth on. Maybe 50F maximum. Not sure why.

- Use a check-valve. Mine failed at one point, and filled the intake manifold with fluid. It ran into one cylinder and hydro-locked my engine on start-up. Luckly there was no perceptible damage and I was able to get the fluid out via the glow plug holes. Or at least make sure your injection point is higher than your reservoir.

- When I do run 50/50 mix in winter, I make a lot of extra power! It's fun. I've made up to 140rwhp. Pretty darn good for an IDI 2.4.

- Despite the drawbacks, I'm still running the system. I'm just pointing out these items as something to watch for.

Are you pre or post turbo with your set up?

The 12v solenoid valve is my automatic check valve --- if EGT <850 the valve is closed (NC valve). In addition, the injection spot is at the top of the air cleaner (above the reservoir).

Re your not noticing an EGT drop, that's curious. See my video above - it is substantial for me.

Thanks for the hard won knowledge, much appreciated.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Are you pre or post turbo with your set up?

The 12v solenoid valve is my automatic check valve --- if EGT <850 the valve is closed (NC valve). In addition, the injection spot is at the top of the air cleaner (above the reservoir).

Re your not noticing an EGT drop, that's curious. See my video above - it is substantial for me.

Thanks for the hard won knowledge, much appreciated.

You're welcome for the info. 'Hard won' is right, haha.

Initially I ran a pre-turbo 1GPH nozzle coupled with a post-intercooler 4GPH nozzle. After about two months I noticed the tips of my turbo compressor were starting to erode. So I scrapped the pre-turbo nozzle. This is not my pic, but from another 2LTE that ran a small pre-turbo nozzle for too long. Just keep a close eye on your compressor to make sure this doesn't eventually happen to your turbo.

 

[Ophir]

You're welcome for the info. 'Hard won' is right, haha.

Initially I ran a pre-turbo 1GPH nozzle coupled with a post-intercooler 4GPH nozzle. After about two months I noticed the tips of my turbo compressor were starting to erode. So I scrapped the pre-turbo nozzle. This is not my pic, but from another 2LTE that ran a small pre-turbo nozzle for too long. Just keep a close eye on your compressor to make sure this doesn't eventually happen to your turbo.

I added a calendar invite for a monthly check.

Will post pics here.

 

[Dougal]

Your EGT aren't high enough to be cause for concern or need lowering. It's far better to fit an intercooler.

 

[Ophir]

Love to hear more of your perspective. I’m trying to keep temps that low intentionally.

From what I’ve read EGT >1250 is the danger zone. Is your main concern the potential compressor degradation or...?

 

[AussieHJCruza]

1300f sustained won't hurt a DI diesel and I doubt 1400f would.
My 1HDT saw 1650f for a short time when I wasn't watching the gauge and being silly on the dyno