Massive performance with CT26 turbo modified with 65mm Garrett turbine.

[mudgudgeon]

Say mudgudgeon :

Be interested to define - " Shat itself " - seals , bearings or turbine vanes ?- all?

I would imagine second hand turbos would be less pennies there -in your land having so many diesels ?

Good New Year

cheers:

definition of "Shat itself" ?

it had developed some shaft play, (I had a replacement ready for rebuild then fitment) the compressor wheel completely disintegrated, the shaft broke in two places, the compressor housing had chunks out of it, chunks of the compressor wheel were sucked through the engine, soooo, end result = dead turbo, bent valves, damaged pistons, complete turbo and engine rebuild required. :whoops:

second hand genuine turbo's seem hard to come by lately due to all the cheap repro's from china on ebay

 

[racerX]

say mudgudgeon :

As I would suspect - and sounds expensive all these repairs ...

I wonder if talking to mates on a Supra forum would be of benefit - gain some ideas on the health of the CT26 - i inquired once to a turbo shoppe about ball bearing a CT26 - as I think I read somewhere this might be possible

wonder if the compressor wheel could handle the boost pressure to 22 lbs- the shaft breaking in 2 places might have been the death of compressor

I have read some postings on an MR2 site about the life of the CT20 - ceramics & longevity etc.... - seems these turbos did not last long - could be too much boosting or fuxing the wastegate -

wonder if the CT26 with internal wastegate door is reason these are not capable of too much boost increase over stock

Good New Year

cheers:

 

[mudgudgeon]

I was told by a reputable turbo shop that they are capable of around 25psi, but with mine, the turbo sound changed dramatically at around 18psi. I would say above that it was going into choke flow. I wired the waste gate shut on mine. Max boost was determined by the fuel pump tune.

As far as modding the CT26 to ball bearing, I think you would find you would spend more to do this than you would spend on a new Garrett ball bearing turbo that could be better matched to what you want. The only advantage I see in modding the CT26 is it is still a bolt on option.

I replaced mine with a Hybrid CT26, which I built using Supra (std 7MGTE Supra turbo) and Landcruiser turbo parts. Still basically bolt on, but with a larger compressor housing and wheel, and Landcruiser turbine housing and wheel, so it still boosts at low RPM but is capable of more airflow at the same boost levels as std

 

[Dougal]

It's very easy to see how hard a turbo is working and how efficient it is. Simply measure the temperature of the compressed air.
Tell me the intake temp, the outlet temp and the boost and I'll tell you how efficient it is.

Obviously when a turbo starts working right outside it's normal range the efficiency starts to plummet.

 

[racerX]

say mudgudgeon :

then the diesel compressor wheel is different than a petrol ?

I read this before , though it was also disputed -

I have 2 Ct20's - one from my 2LT and one from a 22RET ( I wish to use the water jacket CT20 housing on the 2LT ) - and a CT26 from a Supra I hope to install on a 3B

will I have ease or difficulty finding a diesel compressor wheel for a CT26 to replace the petrol version ?

Good New Year

 

[mudgudgeon]

Im not sure of specs on CT20.

there were several versions of CT26 on Landcruisers and also on Supras and Celicas.

The Hybrid I have made uses the landcruiser rear (turbine) housing for 1HD-T. This is smaller than the housing from a Supra, so it will boost at lower RPM
The turbine wheel is the same size in Lnadcruiser and Supra, the housings are different (but same bolt patterns)
The Supra turbo (from 7MGTE) has a larger compressor housing, and larger compressor wheel, so this is capable of higher airflow.

this hybrid should still give boost at the same low RPM, but will flow more air at the same boost, so it should see lower EGTs and more performance.

The centre housing is the same for all CT26 and I believe also for CT20 but not certain of CT20 specs.

have a look through this for more info

Turbocharger Parts Catalogues

scroll down to the Toyota listings

 

[gbentink]

That is a fairly common upgrade, and is a very good idea for a mild modified truck. These turbos are excellent by the way, but the compressor is not the best on the diesels.

I am building a hybrid right now for my 1HD-FTE, but bigger compressor than the 47mm 7MGTE wheel. I designed for 24psi up to 3400rpm. I am installing a 360 degree thrust bearing kit for good measure. I hope/expect to be able to push 220kw @ flywheel, about 180kw @ wheels in this configuration @ 18:1 AFR. So, bit richer than factory, but will be for short periods. at ~ 2000rpm where it will be working, AFR probably closer to 20:1 at full torque which is nice.

I also wouldnt pull off a CT26 to put on a GT28 any version.

I measured the "A" and the "R" of the A/R of 3 turbos the other day.

7MGTE 42010 - 10.5cm2, R = 7.3cm, 52mm exd
12HT 58010 - 8cm2, R = 6.5cm, 52mm exd
1HDFTE 17020 - 6cm2, R = still to measure, 48mm exd


Dougal might appreciate this.

No way would I want to run 17psi and 270hp in a 1HDT. AFR right down there = melted piston crowns! I think the power could be made though. I have seen the site and they use huge plenums, excellent (near perfect) intercooling etc.....

 

[Dougal]

Good to see you back Graeme. How's the data collection on the diesel lexus going?

Speaking of scary A/F's. Some of the remap tuners in the UK think 13:1 is a good thing on a diesel.

 

[gbentink]

Great to hear from you. Unforrtunalty no numbers. Some experiences though....

I first increased boost to just before boost cut (HKS EVC3). ECU definately provided more fuel so that was good. Still need to look at inlet air temp sensor to see what effect adjusting the vaules does....

I then fitted a aftermarket programmable chip and blew out the drive clutch in the transmission. This was while towing a 4t caravan through sand at 20km/h. anyway the trans is strong enough but the chips dont work well with the factory computer controlled shift changes (delays in clutch engagement = lots of slip).

I was 800km from home too. Still, 1st-3rd worked so I dumped the oil, kept flushing (bought 15L!!) until clean and drove home in 3rd at 3500+rpm LOL

So, got home a few weeks ago, pulled the 5spd auto out, mildly stripped it down, changed the steel and fibres on the direct clutch (the fibres were down to the steel....) put back in (total 12hrs, not bad methinks) and it ran sweet.

I had bought a shift kit for the trans and finally fit that (man I wish I did that while the trans was out crap messy job, but not having built a trans before I wanted to split the work I did into stages...). Now it shifts like a beauty - very hard, very firm when needed. I am still considering aftermarket programmable oprtions though. I would also be suprised if the box could handle more than 800nm - small shafts (big clutches though).

To give an idea of torque with Chip, our hills down south WA are not so steep, but through undulating country, fully laden and probbaly towing 4t I could hold 5th locked up on the TC up 90% of the inclines at ~ 90km/h. Without the chip wouldnt do it in 4th, not a chance. My tuning regime was keep increasing until it could hold 5th locked up up fair inclines - I am a cowboy.

I had the chip set to alot higher than reccomended but NO SMOKE and the oil was almost petrol clean after 800km of this driving (got more dirty coming home at 3500-4000 though).

Last night I did a fuel economy run, mostly freeway and 90-95km/H and did 7.8L/100k or 13.05km/L. I was shocked.

Will be setting up all the gauges and stuff soon, but want to get the thing pitted first.

I have almost completed the turbo build to replace the excellent stocker (great turbo on these). anyway, should be impressive and will post details soon enough.

Good to see you back Graeme. How's the data collection on the diesel lexus going?

Speaking of scary A/F's. Some of the remap tuners in the UK think 13:1 is a good thing on a diesel.

 

[Dougal]

You're pushing a lot of air with those 100's, but I thought the 5 speeds would do a little better.
My father got 30mpg with his 4 speed 1HD-FTE once and trying really hard too. But carefully towing an aerodynamic boat (90km/h speed limit towing here) it can do 12 litres/100.

Make sure you tell Eleblanc what you're up to. He's playing a similar game.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/372709-hdj100-swap.html

 

[gbentink]

Thanks Dougal, have done

Also for those wondering about the CT26, depending on how well you match the compressor wheel to the engine, it can do 25psi without a problem. I wouldnt run more than ~ 19-20psi on a std comp wheel and that would depend on what trim the stock wheel was (there are many versions from 42mm to 47mm inducer) and again the application you are using it on.

On a diesel, forget ball bearing,

You're pushing a lot of air with those 100's, but I thought the 5 speeds would do a little better.
My father got 30mpg with his 4 speed 1HD-FTE once and trying really hard too. But carefully towing an aerodynamic boat (90km/h speed limit towing here) it can do 12 litres/100.

Make sure you tell Eleblanc what you're up to. He's playing a similar game.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/372709-hdj100-swap.html

 

[racerX]

say gbentink:

interested to know why you think no ball bearing turbo for a diesel .....

cheers:

 

[gbentink]

@ racerX,

The main advanatge of the BB design from what I understand is the reduction in friction which is vaild for low shaft torque situations such as low rpm, low exhaust gas flow.

In a diesel since they are not throttled, the turbo spends most its time mostly spooled up. Consider that the rpm of the shaft doesnt change linearly in proportion to a mass flow change, its typically to the square. Doubling the flow means very approximately 2^0.5 (41.4%) increase in shaft speed.

I have heard but not had real data, that the friction is higher on the thrust in a BB design, and on this basis, non BB actually is slightly better at high boost. This does seem to be floored to me, but in any case I believe the former to be true.

I have experienced a GT2860RS and the exact equivalent but plain bearing center and on 4.2 diesel = no dicernable difference.

The most noticable improvements to response will be: compressor sizing, exhaust turbine sizing, A/R, exhaust backpressure, inlet manifold temperature, rotating mass intertia and total volume between turbo and inlet valves. Get all that right and you have spent your money well.

People really need to consider the cost of the change vs the benefit - thats what I do as a process engineer. Everyone has a budget, spend it WISELY. Even if a BB was to offer a benefit, the money is best spent elsewhere unless everything else has been done, in MY opinion

 

[Dougal]

You need to get an android or iphone with some dyno software Graeme. Easy and fast way to baseline a vehicle.

Process engineer, well that fills in a few blanks.

 

[Hulsty]

Thanks Dougal, have done

Also for those wondering about the CT26, depending on how well you match the compressor wheel to the engine, it can do 25psi without a problem. I wouldnt run more than ~ 19-20psi on a std comp wheel and that would depend on what trim the stock wheel was (there are many versions from 42mm to 47mm inducer) and again the application you are using it on.

On a diesel, forget ball bearing,

I run my 13BT CT26 at 19psi, It has been rebuilt at some point and does not have the standard compressor wheel. I do not know the size of the standard compressor wheel. I also have a 1HD CT26, the turbine sides both look the same.

On the compressor side the 1HD CT26 has a ~44mm 5 blade wheel with fairly thin blades. My 13BT CT26 has a ~47mm 7 blade while with more substantial blades than the 1HD unit.

So far it has not given any problems running at these levels.

 

[racerX]

say gbentink :

Well said - and agree - spend your time/money wisely

did not think of the ball bearing shaft in the way you explained - makes sense - I pose this question to you - what of ceramic ball bearing turbo ? would reduce the heat /friction to shaft at higher rpm's , no?
Just asking as I will stay with the CT20 /2LT and CT26 /3B - though I did pull both from petrol moteur 's - for the water jacket cooling - the 2LT's here only had oil cooling

I will open both CT20's I have to see the difference in impeller wheels - pertol to diesel ......

cheers for your comments

 

[gbentink]

the 47mm inducer comp wheel is the largest made for a factory engine and was used on only some of the 7MGTE. Not so easy to find. But is has thin blades as far as I have seen (could yours be 46mm, hard to measure with odd number of blades). The 46mm which is also not so common has very thick blades and should handle higher boost than that however I would install a 360 degree thrust bearing. (USDM version 7MGTE was smaller than 47mm). On your 3BT with 47mm inducer, 19psi is fine. I assume yours is manual so expect to replace your thrust bearings at some stage soon..... 3SGTE, also petrol, on Gen 1 had a 42mm inducer or therabouts. The fuel type doesnt govern the compressor size, it is a function of power output/displacement for the most part within a given fuel type.

All CT26 have the same turbine dimensions, petrol or diesel.

I fit the 46mm and larger when I high flow. Largest I would fit would be around the 50mm inducer, but that also depends on the intended application.

I am starting to highflow alot of turbos again - I think winter was just too cold here in Perth to do outside work - you know, 20 °C during day Brrrrrr.

I run my 13BT CT26 at 19psi, It has been rebuilt at some point and does not have the standard compressor wheel. I do not know the size of the standard compressor wheel. I also have a 1HD CT26, the turbine sides both look the same.

On the compressor side the 1HD CT26 has a ~44mm 5 blade wheel with fairly thin blades. My 13BT CT26 has a ~47mm 7 blade while with more substantial blades than the 1HD unit.

So far it has not given any problems running at these levels.

 

[gbentink]

I have the iPhone 4 but been busy. I have a digital weighbridge nearby so will get the weight. I am not rushing it since I am trying to balance my time at home with family with shed stuff.

You need to get an android or iphone with some dyno software Graeme. Easy and fast way to baseline a vehicle.

Process engineer, well that fills in a few blanks.

 

[gbentink]

I dont know the answer to that. Depends entirely on design and experience. I dont know the design and havent got comparative experienec between BB types.

Regarding petrol comp wheel sizes, I replied to another post on the subject of Petrol comp sizes vs diesel - depends on application. Same turbo frames are used over an array of different sized/purposed engines

say gbentink :

Well said - and agree - spend your time/money wisely

did not think of the ball bearing shaft in the way you explained - makes sense - I pose this question to you - what of ceramic ball bearing turbo ? would reduce the heat /friction to shaft at higher rpm's , no?
Just asking as I will stay with the CT20 /2LT and CT26 /3B - though I did pull both from petrol moteur 's - for the water jacket cooling - the 2LT's here only had oil cooling

I will open both CT20's I have to see the difference in impeller wheels - pertol to diesel ......

cheers for your comments

 

[Hulsty]

the 47mm inducer comp wheel is the largest made for a factory engine and was used on only some of the 7MGTE. Not so easy to find. But is has thin blades as far as I have seen (could yours be 46mm, hard to measure with odd number of blades). The 46mm which is also not so common has very thick blades and should handle higher boost than that however I would install a 360 degree thrust bearing. (USDM version 7MGTE was smaller than 47mm). On your 3BT with 47mm inducer, 19psi is fine. I assume yours is manual so expect to replace your thrust bearings at some stage soon..... 3SGTE, also petrol, on Gen 1 had a 42mm inducer or therabouts. The fuel type doesnt govern the compressor size, it is a function of power output/displacement for the most part within a given fuel type.

All CT26 have the same turbine dimensions, petrol or diesel.

I fit the 46mm and larger when I high flow. Largest I would fit would be around the 50mm inducer, but that also depends on the intended application.

I am starting to highflow alot of turbos again - I think winter was just too cold here in Perth to do outside work - you know, 20 °C during day Brrrrrr.

Yes it could be 46mm I did not run my calipers over it.

First picture is my 13BT unit, second picture is my 1HD unit.

Yes manual, I have also picked up a rebuilt and balanced 1HD core, which when the time comes, I will have fitted with the appropriate compressor wheel and 360 degree thrust bearing, is fitting the 360 degree bearing difficult?