late 80 upper rear hatch electrical questions (and leaving it open)?

[landcruiser3DP]

i'm finding the upper rear hatch to be a little confusing.
0. my upper hatch brake light is out. the fixture itself lights up when hooked up to 12V and i'm told this will probably be fixed by replacing rear taillight harnesses which i plan to do.
but beyond this i was wondering if anyone can help me read how this upper rear hatch connects the the rest of the electrical.
1. can i leave the upper rear hatch open overnight and not have it drain the battery? how would i do this? right now it seems to cause the rear dome light, rear door lights and a coupe items in the cluster to remain on?
2. is it hooked up to the alarm system or anything else? it makes like a five second buzzing sound in the dash when it is initially opened? i was going to know what this is?
3. as i understand it i am supposed to be able to leave the headlights on at the stalk, take the keys out, then open and close the drivers door (?) and the headlights go out. does that sound right? is there any good reason opening the rear hatch would cause the headlights and front and rear side lights to go on? this has happened a bunch of times and it's super confusing.
THANKS

 

[landcruiser3DP]

electrical and other diagrams

 

[NeverFinis]

This is the relevant wiring diagram.

1) From my reading of it, any door, including the back hatch, will activate the door courtesy lights. Edited to add, just the rear door courtesy lights get turned on.

2) Maybe a relay issue. I don't hear a buzzing in my LX450 under the same conditions. Edited to add, might be just the normal door chime.

3) Yes. From the FSM:

LIGHT AUTO TURN OFF OPERATION
WITH LIGHTS ON AND THE IGNITION SW TURNED OFF (INPUT SIGNAL GOES TO TERMINAL 1 OF THE LIGHT RETAINER RELAY),
WHEN THE DRIVER’S DOOR IS OPENED (INPUT SIGNAL GOES TO TERMINAL 5 OF THE LIGHT RETAINER RELAY), THE RELAY
OPERATES, AND THE CURRENT IS CUT OFF WHICH FLOWS FROM TERMINAL 8 OF THE RELAY TO TERMINAL 2 AND FROM
TERMINAL 7 OF THE RELAY TO TERMINAL 3. AS A RESULT, ALL LIGHTS ARE TURNED OFF AUTOMATICALLY.

But, the Light Retainer Relay takes signals from the Door Courtesy Switch (Front LH) and activates the Tail Relay. Keeping the front driver's door (LH) open should keep the headlights from auto turning off. Opening the driver's door turns off the lights. Having the rear hatch open does not prevent the auto off of the head lights.

I can check on my truck..

 

[NeverFinis]

Just checked my truck.

The rear hatch being open will keep the rear door courtesy lights on but not the fronts.

The rear hatch being open does not prevent the auto off lights from working, as long as one does a key cycle.

 

[NeverFinis]

There is a door chime if the key is in the ignition and a door is open. I wouldn't call it a buzzing.

Looks like as soon as you open the driver's door, the auto off light activates.

 

[george_tlc]

For camping you can flip the latch 'closed' on the bottom half of the tailgate so that the electrical system 'thinks' the hatch is closed. Just remember to unlatch before trying to close the hatch. I just clip on a little bit of bright yellow paracord as a reminder.

I'd also suggest switching the incandescent heaters (light bulbs) out for LEDs - they will draw a lot less current and put out a lot more light.

cheers,
george.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

There is a door chime if the key is in the ignition and a door is open. I wouldn't call it a buzzing.

Looks like as soon as you open the driver's door, the auto off light activates.

thanks for this. i know i asked a bunch of questions here. on the buzzing i just recorded it. about 5 seconds long.
the sequence was:
truck in park, turn off ignition, take out keys, open and close drivers door. open upper rear hatch and it will buzz for 5 seconds. granted it goes off but i'm curious as to what this is.
also on the lights issue with hatch open the rear dome light (i can turn this to off), both rear passenger courtesy door lights and this door ajar light is lit.

 

[NeverFinis]

thanks for this. i know i asked a bunch of questions here. on the buzzing i just recorded it. about 5 seconds long.
the sequence was:
truck in park, turn off ignition, take out keys, open and close drivers door. open upper rear hatch and it will buzz for 5 seconds. granted it goes off but i'm curious as to what this is.

No noise from the rear hatch when I do the same sequence. Can you post the audio?

also on the lights issue with hatch open the rear dome light (i can turn this to off), both rear passenger courtesy door lights and this door ajar light is lit.

This is normal.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

For camping you can flip the latch 'closed' on the bottom half of the tailgate so that the electrical system 'thinks' the hatch is closed. Just remember to unlatch before trying to close the hatch. I just clip on a little bit of bright yellow paracord as a reminder.

I'd also suggest switching the incandescent heaters (light bulbs) out for LEDs - they will draw a lot less current and put out a lot more light.

cheers,
george.

LED back to incandescent makes a ton of sense. i switched off the dome light so it's off all the time. and i could pull the lamps to the courtesy lights in the rear door? would that leave just the door ajar lamp in the cluster?
what do you think?
also i am not following the point about the latch in the lower (hatch)? i didn't think the lower hatch had anything connecting up to the harness? can you help here?
i have had interesting results closing a rear passenger door when the latch mechanism was not in the fully open position so i definitely don't want to do that again...

 

[landcruiser3DP]

No noise from the rear hatch when I do the same sequence. Can you post the audio?



This is normal.

thanks man.
i had an issue with the upper rear hatch not latching causing my battery to discharge and i think i have solved this but i would like to make sure i know what is going on here. so between your help and diving back into the electrical diagrams i am going to make sure i "get it".
i probably should have mentioned i have the LX450 with alarm system so i am not really sure if any of this is unique to my rig.
i've also been told to deactivate the sleek system since the capacitors or something go bad and "leak" causing problems.
anyway this is the sound.
i think i do want to make sure its not causing a drain other battery since id like to leave the hat hatch open overnight and its slightly disconcerting to hear the noise with no key in the ignition.
sequence to this audio is:
(headlights at stalk are off i am pretty sure)
remove keys. open and shut door, key in rear upper hatch, open rear upper hatch.
then five second noise. ignore where it says LX440 i have to change this.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[george_tlc]

My mistake - there's a latch on the top hatch - just flick it and the system will think the hatch is closed.

Put leds in the doors too - brighter and low current. I never worry about door lights or dome lights when I'm camping. I sleep in the back and sometimes with the hatch open for cool air - so then flip the latch.

cheers,
george.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

more electrical diagrams i forgot to post:

 

[landcruiser3DP]

My mistake - there's a latch on the top hatch - just flick it and the system will think the hatch is closed.

Put leds in the doors too - brighter and low current. I never worry about door lights or dome lights when I'm camping. I sleep in the back and sometimes with the hatch open for cool air - so then flip the latch.

cheers,
george.

thanks for this. i will take a look at the lock mechanics. you hang some paracord there so you don't dig it up by trying to close it i guess.
also oh my bad. LEDS are better than incandescent? i have LEd in the doors and incandescent in the rear dome because LED is too bright there.
so you have no problems my leaving the incandescent down light on manual off and letting the rear door courtesy lights stay on for two or three days?

 

[george_tlc]

thanks for this. i will take a look at the lock mechanics. you hang some paracord there so you don't dig it up by trying to close it i guess.
also oh my bad. LEDS are better than incandescent? i have LEd in the doors and incandescent in the rear dome because LED is too bright there.
so you have no problems my leaving the incandescent down light on manual off and letting the rear door courtesy lights stay on for two or three days?

 

[NeverFinis]

thanks man.
i had an issue with the upper rear hatch not latching causing my battery to discharge and i think i have solved this but i would like to make sure i know what is going on here. so between your help and diving back into the electrical diagrams i am going to make sure i "get it".
i probably should have mentioned i have the LX450 with alarm system so i am not really sure if any of this is unique to my rig.
i've also been told to deactivate the sleek system since the capacitors or something go bad and "leak" causing problems.
anyway this is the sound.
i think i do want to make sure its not causing a drain other battery since id like to leave the hat hatch open overnight and its slightly disconcerting to hear the noise with no key in the ignition.
sequence to this audio is:
(headlights at stalk are off i am pretty sure)
remove keys. open and shut door, key in rear upper hatch, open rear upper hatch.
then five second noise. ignore where it says LX440 i have to change this.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

I saw the LX450 manual screenshots you were posting and knew you had a LX450. I have a 96 LX450 with the factory alarm. The alarm is working fine for me but I have a 3rd party adapter on hand to convert to another alarm system. Sold by Lutz Auto made by @Lutz Auto

The noise, starting about 15 seconds in, is just the regular door chime. I think it only makes a noise if the key is in the ignition, and a door is opened. I can check on that though.

As George mentioned, convert the door lights to LED and/or remove them. Also, trick the hatch lock to think it is closed.

Put the truck on a trickle charger. Or, remove the battery.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

This is the relevant wiring diagram.

View attachment 4009097

1) From my reading of it, any door, including the back hatch, will activate the door courtesy lights. Edited to add, just the rear door courtesy lights get turned on.

2) Maybe a relay issue. I don't hear a buzzing in my LX450 under the same conditions. Edited to add, might be just the normal door chime.

3) Yes. From the FSM:


But, the Light Retainer Relay takes signals from the Door Courtesy Switch (Front LH) and activates the Tail Relay. Keeping the front driver's door (LH) open should keep the headlights from auto turning off. Opening the driver's door turns off the lights. Having the rear hatch open does not prevent the auto off of the head lights.

I can check on my truck..

hey. i really really appreciate this. i will go looking in the FSM for the right spot. i was trying to find upper rear hatch brake light originally and i didn't do a very good job putting all my issues together.
i will study this. that said some equations while i study up.

1. "LIGHT AUTO TURN OFF OPERATION
WITH LIGHTS ON AND THE IGNITION SW TURNED OFF (INPUT SIGNAL GOES TO TERMINAL 1 OF THE LIGHT RETAINER RELAY), WHEN THE DRIVER’S DOOR IS OPENED (INPUT SIGNAL GOES TO TERMINAL 5 OF THE LIGHT RETAINER RELAY), THE RELAY OPERATES, AND THE CURRENT IS CUT OFF WHICH FLOWS FROM TERMINAL 8 OF THE RELAY TO TERMINAL 2 AND FROM TERMINAL 7 OF THE RELAY TO TERMINAL 3. AS A RESULT, ALL LIGHTS ARE TURNED OFF AUTOMATICALLY."

> this is saying that there is a switch (the round rubber coated thing i can depress and let go) in the driver side door that sends a signal to all the exterior and the front dome and front courtesy lights that tells them to go off? or the exterior lights will go off even if the headlight switch is on at the stalk? i mean as far as i know if you switch the headlights off first - well opening the drivers side door only will turn off the interior lights since nothing else is on?

> in my case headlights are on at the stalk when i pull in, the key is removed from the ignition, the door is opened (and then closed) and it's like sometimes or maybe now always (?!) the headlight stay on?

> but also - well let's say exterior lights are off and the headlights are on at the stalk with the key in the ignition. shouid the rear taillights and front headlights and both sets of sidelights go on if you open the rear hatch?(!) or where do i find this explanation?

2. "But, the Light Retainer Relay takes signals from the Door Courtesy Switch (Front LH) and activates the Tail Relay. Keeping the front driver's door (LH) open should keep the headlights from auto turning off. Opening the driver's door turns off the lights. Having the rear hatch open does not prevent the auto off of the head lights."

so here you are saying that IF the headlights are on at the stalk - they would all be off obviously if the stalk is set to off? - well then opening the door should turn off the exterior lights? and by this we mean headlight and tail light and both sets of sidelights lights?

you are also saying that leaving the upper rear hatch open or opening the upper rear hatch should not keep the lights on or turn the (exterior) lights on?

what am i looking for if i have headlight on at the stalk, drivers door opens and the exterior lights go off (for the record i am not sure that is happening) - and with exterior lights OFF the exterior light can sometimes become lit when i open the upper rear hatch? i mean it doesn't happen reliably but it has definitely happened more than once.

 

[george_tlc]

Door LEDs will draw maybe 20mA each. LED domes would be maybe 50mA each.

So, with all on you have about 200mA draw. 48 hours is 10AH from your battery - not an issue with decent battery condition. Of course you could just flip the domes off while camped. Then the doors are insignificant over a 48 hour period...

The paracord on the latch area is so I don't try to slam the hatch closed with the latch latched... It reminds me to pull on the latch lever to the right of the latch mechanism on the hatch to unlock the latch. Just hang a bit of paracord on a carabiner from the latch handle... I had to go out to verify since when I do it, it's basically a muscle memory action

cheers,
george.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I saw the LX450 manual screenshots you were posting and knew you had a LX450. I have a 96 LX450 with the factory alarm. The alarm is working fine for me but I have a 3rd party adapter on hand to convert to another alarm system. Sold by Lutz Auto made by @Lutz Auto

The noise, starting about 15 seconds in, is just the regular door chime. I think it only makes a noise if the key is in the ignition, and a door is opened. I can check on that though.

As George mentioned, convert the door lights to LED and/or remove them. Also, trick the hatch lock to think it is closed.

Put the truck on a trickle charger. Or, remove the battery.

hey. tons of thanks for this.

door chime makes sense. mine will go of with keys out, lights off and i open the hatch. that's wheat that sound clip shows.

are you happy with the Lutz? i obviously have other things to tackle but it would be good to know if it's worth it especially if i go boondocking for extended periods of time. i do have to balance it against the idea of completely deactivating the system for to possible parasitic draw but i guess i can test this. or some guys seem to report the ignition kill suddenly activating with not so fun results?

 

[NeverFinis]

hey. i really really appreciate this. i will go looking in the FSM for the right spot. i was trying to find upper rear hatch brake light originally and i didn't do a very good job putting all my issues together.
i will study this. that said some equations while i study up.
1. "LIGHT AUTO TURN OFF OPERATION
WITH LIGHTS ON AND THE IGNITION SW TURNED OFF (INPUT SIGNAL GOES TO TERMINAL 1 OF THE LIGHT RETAINER RELAY), WHEN THE DRIVER’S DOOR IS OPENED (INPUT SIGNAL GOES TO TERMINAL 5 OF THE LIGHT RETAINER RELAY), THE RELAY OPERATES, AND THE CURRENT IS CUT OFF WHICH FLOWS FROM TERMINAL 8 OF THE RELAY TO TERMINAL 2 AND FROM TERMINAL 7 OF THE RELAY TO TERMINAL 3. AS A RESULT, ALL LIGHTS ARE TURNED OFF AUTOMATICALLY."

> this is saying that there is a switch (the round rubber coated thing i can depress and let go) in the driver side door that sends a signal to all the exterior and the front dome and front courtesy lights that tells them to go off? or the exterior lights will go off even if the headlight switch is on at the stalk? i mean as far as i know id you switch the headlights off first - well opening the drivers side door only will turn off the interior lights since nothing else is on?

The door switch you are referring to is just a ground switch. It grounds the appropriate door/dome light circuit.

I believe the passage in question is only referring the main vehicle lights (head lights, side markers, etc).

Any door can have its own ground switch activated, and that allows turning on the rest of the associated door/dome lights.

in my case headlights are on at the stalk when i pull in, the key is removed from the ignition, the door is opened (and then closed) and it's like sometimes or maybe now always (?!) the headlight stay on?

They should go off. But, the key must go to the On position and then back to Off to activate the auto off.

so here you are saying that IF the headlights are on at the stalk - they would all be off obviously if the stalk is set to off? - well then opening the door should turn off the exterior lights? and by this we mean headlight and tail light and both sets of sidelights lights?

Yes, assuming the key has been at the On position (driving the vehicle)

you are also saying that leaving the upper rear hatch open or opening the upper rear hatch should not keep the lights on or turn the (exterior) lights on?

what am i looking for if i have headlight on at the stalk, drivers door opens and the exterior lights go off (for the record i am not sure that is happening) - and with exterior lights OFF the exterior light can sometimes become lit when i open the upper rear hatch? i mean it doesn't happen reliably but it has definitely happened more than once.

I can't replicate what you are seeing.

door chime makes sense. mine will go of with keys out, lights off and i open the hatch. that's wheat that sound clip shows.

I checked. It is officially called the "UNLOCK WARNING SYSTEM."

In essence: Key In, Door Open, Dome Fuse provides power to the warning buzzer.

are you happy with the Lutz?

Yes. Happy. I have never heard of an issue with Lutz. There have been issues with a few specific vendors, but @Lutz Auto is not one of them.

I have bought several items from Lutz: speedometer correction, alarm adapter, and the relay kit.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

so two items here?

one is the turning off of the exterior lights even if the headlight is on at the stalk?

and second is a warning sound?

and both are activated by that switch at the driver side door?

1. exterior lights go out with headlight on at the stall when key is in on position, goes to off, and then drivers door is opened?

2. warning system sounds when any door is opened and this is sensed by a switch at the door (for drivers door this is the same switch that turns off the lights when released)?

-
reposting the text from your image for good measure:
"UNLOCK WARNING SYSTEM WHEN THE IGNITION SW IS TURNED TO OFF AND THE DRIVER'S DOOR IS OPENED (THE DOOR COURTESY SW IS ON) WHILE THE KEY IS STILL INSERTED IN THE KEY CYLINDER (THE UNLOCK WARNING SW IS ON), A SIGNAL IS INPUT TO TERMINAL 8 OF THE SEAT BELT WARNING RELAY, ACTIVATING THE SEAT BELT WARNING RELAY. THIS CAUSES CURRENT FROM THE DOME FUSE TO FLOW TO TERMINAL 9 OF THE SEAT BELT WARNING RELAY → TERMINAL 1 → GROUND, SOUNDING UNLOCK WARNING BUZZER."