Is a rebuilt 2f as good as "new"?

[jb welda]

>A craftsman building one engine at a time, with no one working on
>it but him, with much greater time to spend on that one engine,
>with much greater attention to detail and ONE specific customer to
>satisfy. And his personal reputation on the line when that engine
>rolls out the door.

will you please post the name of that "craftsman" because in my experience a lot of guys talk "craftsman" but then do gorilla work unless youre really paying the big bucks for individual attention and even then you often get burned.

or they take shortcuts and use non-oem parts and we all agree that oem is best, right?

anyway i just have a lot of respect for japanese craftsmanship and even japanese mass production craftsmanship and i think the proof is in the doing: a stock factory motor gets how many miles on it typically without burning out? that speaks volumes.

now yeah if you have an "artist" rebuilding your motor then you may well end up with something better than factory, but i dont think thats the typical case. or if you rebuild it yourself, really know what youre doing, and take the time and expense to do a quality job, then its probably approaching or exceeding "factory" esp if you blueprint it while you build it.

ive just had too many instances (VWs and porsches being the worst) of people promising "factory quality" and 6 months or usually warranty period plus one day later the motor is junk or quickly approaching that point.

one love
jah bill

 

[jb welda]

oh i forgot to answer the question:

>Which engine do YOU want in YOUR rig?

i will take OEM please. actually thats not true. i will take a chevy small block with modern fuel injection. but if i had to stick to stock, OEM factory built everytime.

thank you

one love
jah bill

 

[agent orange]

I dont care how good it is, a factory is a factory. Anyplace that cranks out thousands of engines a day cannot match the attention to detail that a well versed rebuilder can put into a motor. Assemblers in factories dont blueprint clearances, they dont have the benefit of years of use exposing weak links in an engine, and they arent looking to squeeze the most efficiency and power from a motor.

If someone does a s***ty job rebuilding a motor with substandard components, then its a substandard motor. If a qualified person assembles a motor with care with premium components and processes, then it will be better than the day it left the factory.

Look at it this way, would you rather have your fuel injected SBC be based on a low mileage bone stock motor put together in 35 minutes or a low mileage rebuild from a performance motor shop?

 

[Mace]

will you please post the name of that "craftsman" because in my experience a lot of guys talk "craftsman" but then do gorilla work unless youre really paying the big bucks for individual attention and even then you often get burned.

or they take shortcuts and use non-oem parts and we all agree that oem is best, right?

anyway i just have a lot of respect for japanese craftsmanship and even japanese mass production craftsmanship and i think the proof is in the doing: a stock factory motor gets how many miles on it typically without burning out? that speaks volumes.

now yeah if you have an "artist" rebuilding your motor then you may well end up with something better than factory, but i dont think thats the typical case. or if you rebuild it yourself, really know what youre doing, and take the time and expense to do a quality job, then its probably approaching or exceeding "factory" esp if you blueprint it while you build it.

ive just had too many instances (VWs and porsches being the worst) of people promising "factory quality" and 6 months or usually warranty period plus one day later the motor is junk or quickly approaching that point.

one love
jah bill

Gary Kardum..

Ask around..

 

[jb welda]

>would you rather have your fuel injected SBC be based on a low mileage bone
>stock motor put together in 35 minutes or a low mileage rebuild from a
>performance motor shop?

i would rather have it pass california smog with flying colors every year for the next twenty or so.

>Gary Kardum..

since i am not in the market for a motor, i would pass this on to the original poster. im not saying a rebuild is *never* better, im just saying it is *seldom* better. but if this guy comes through with the proven goods then there you have it. no arguing with success.

one love
jah bill

 

[stumpy]

im not saying a rebuild is *never* better, im just saying it is *seldom* better. but if this guy comes through with the proven goods then there you have it. no arguing with success.

clearly you havent dealt with a quality machine shop. mark W, among others, is right. having one dude do the build from the 'ground up' and do it the way you want it makes for SIGNIFICANT improvement over OEM. if you ever get the chance to talk to a quality machinist about what they do to the motor that the OEM guys omit, you might find yourself suprised.

OEM just cant afford to put the time and attention into a build that a machinist can. toyota is generally better than most, but a machinist will beat the pants off an assembly line any day.

 

[GulfShoresFJ60]

i would pass this on to the original poster.

This is the person the original poster was talking about rebuilding his motor.

 

[FJ40Jim]

will you please post the name of that "craftsman"

Me.

or they take shortcuts and use non-oem parts and we all agree that oem is best, right?

No, OEM toyota camshafts, timing gears, exhaust valves and foil manifold gaskets are poorly spec'ed parts that fail early.

When I build an engine it has the best parts in it. Period.

anyway i just have a lot of respect for japanese craftsmanship and even japanese mass production craftsmanship and i think the proof is in the doing: a stock factory motor gets how many miles on it typically without burning out?

Dunno what "burning out" means, but a 2F starts going to pieces around 100K. The manifold gasket begins leaking, which burns the soft exhaust valves. Cam lobes wear through the too-thin surface hardening, which causes a general loss of efficiency.

The impressive part is that a Cruiser engine will continue to limp along like that for another 100K miles sometimes. Drivers complain about the lack of power and abysmal fuel economy, but just keep driving.

now yeah if you have an "artist" rebuilding your motor then you may well end up with something better than factory, but i dont think thats the typical case. or if you rebuild it yourself, really know what youre doing, and take the time and expense to do a quality job, then its probably approaching or exceeding "factory" esp if you blueprint it while you build it.

Yes, it all comes down to the skill & knowledge of the QC inspector.

 

[Mace]

Me.

No, OEM toyota camshafts, timing gears, exhaust valves and foil manifold gaskets are poorly spec'ed parts that fail early.

When I build an engine it has the best parts in it. Period.

Dunno what "burning out" means, but a 2F starts going to pieces around 100K. The manifold gasket begins leaking, which burns the soft exhaust valves. Cam lobes wear through the too-thin surface hardening, which causes a general loss of efficiency.

The impressive part is that a Cruiser engine will continue to limp along like that for another 100K miles sometimes. Drivers complain about the lack of power and abysmal fuel economy, but just keep driving.


Yes, it all comes down to the skill & knowledge of the QC inspector.

You damn hack..
How dare you use something that is not built by the cruiser GODS!!!!!

Sheesh..

 

[Mark W]

>A craftsman building one engine at a time, with no one working on
>it but him, with much greater time to spend on that one engine,
>with much greater attention to detail and ONE specific customer to
>satisfy. And his personal reputation on the line when that engine
>rolls out the door.

will you please post the name of that "craftsman" because in my experience a lot of guys talk "craftsman" but then do gorilla work unless youre really paying the big bucks for individual attention and even then you often get burned.

or they take shortcuts and use non-oem parts and we all agree that oem is best, right?

anyway i just have a lot of respect for japanese craftsmanship and even japanese mass production craftsmanship and i think the proof is in the doing: a stock factory motor gets how many miles on it typically without burning out? that speaks volumes.

now yeah if you have an "artist" rebuilding your motor then you may well end up with something better than factory, but i dont think thats the typical case. or if you rebuild it yourself, really know what youre doing, and take the time and expense to do a quality job, then its probably approaching or exceeding "factory" esp if you blueprint it while you build it.

ive just had too many instances (VWs and porsches being the worst) of people promising "factory quality" and 6 months or usually warranty period plus one day later the motor is junk or quickly approaching that point.

one love
jah bill

Name one...? Okay, ME. And several other guys right here on this forum. the machinist that does my block work for me. The other machinist that handles my head work when my first guy is backed up. Several other mechanics I know here locally.

If you believe that OEM Toyota motors can not be improved on, then I'd wager you have not ever carefully rebuilt one. They're good. They're not perfect.


Mark...

 

[cwb]

personally i think it will NO WAY be "better than new", but thats asking a lot. it should be adequate and shouldnt require you to tear into it again for a long time but given the parts situation (plus the temptation to shortcut even when the OEM parts are available and are in fact up to original quality) plus the fact that originally it was assembled in a japanese factory with diligence (as evidenced by the longevity of a typical factory motor) i think youre asking a lot for it to be "better than new". but thats splitting hairs to some degree anyway.

in summary i have a lot of faith in japanese engineering, discipline and assembly not to mention the parts used to originally build a motor that went into a car carrying the factory name and reputation and warranty.

one love
jah bill

I agree. No matter how professional a rebuilder is, there is no way he's going to get it better than new. Of course, he can build it for more performance than new, but not more longevity than new. No way.

 

[agent orange]

I agree. No matter how professional a rebuilder is, there is no way he's going to get it better than new. Of course, he can build it for more performance than new, but not more longevity than new. No way.

Why, name one good reason.

 

[dmede808]

Well, this turned into a little pissing match eh?

I think some of whats being said onn both side is probably correct. A good mechanic can dial in an engine during the rebuild better than the factory guys probably would. He has more time to work on it, less other stuff to do. One person on one job instead of an assembly line of workers.

On the other hand a lot of what gets put together originaly is often never the same once its broken down and rebuilt, often with aftermarket parts. Higher performance doesn't have to equate to higher quality.

On the topic of the rebuild, I have another question. Can switching the tranny to a 5 speed a during the rebuild save me any money on the labor involved? Does the transmission usually come out with the motor?

dave

 

[Mark W]

No pissing match at all. Just a couple of guys who seem to thing that a Toyota factory is some sort of temple to be worshiped at.

Statements to the effect that we can't do it as well are all find and good.


Back it up.


Mark...

 

[sandcrawler]

This is a classic dichotomy of opinion, there are always guys who think that factory is best, and there are others who think that aftermarket is always better; the answer lies somewhere inbetween. However I feel that a good machine shop and a talented engine builder will produce something the factory can't, which is an optimization of the motor at hand. The factory strives for consistency, which means that they never go all out (and no matter what you think, no factory ever builds their engine to the Nth degree, they can't). But a good engine builder can get everything out of the motor that can be gotten. Will it come at a price? of course, and only you can decide if that price is something you're will to pay.

I'd love to have my 150K FE3 rebuilt; i'm certain that after 19 years of use, a fresh rebuild would be better than new (especially since i could avoid all of the compromises the factory HAD to make). But that's a bit down the road for me.

 

[NocalFJ60]

On the topic of the rebuild, I have another question. Can switching the tranny to a 5 speed a during the rebuild save me any money on the labor involved? Does the transmission usually come out with the motor?

dave

It would be a good time to put in a 5 speed while the engine is out. You don't have to pull the transmission to pull the engine. It depends on the year of your 60 too on how easy it would be to add a 5 speed.

I see you have a 87 so that would make adding a 5 speed a lot easier. Basically it would bolt right in and the transfer case would be opened up to install the new transmission so it could be checked and resealed if needed.

 

[jb welda]

>Back it up.

i cant. but heres something, since you say to back it up could you please submit one or two referrals from people whose motor has been rebuilt by you and have experienced no problems in like 150k miles? by that i mean it was put together correctly the first time, installed and never de/reinstalled, and never really had to be messed with except for normal maintenance issues?

im not arguing with you im just asking the same thing you seem to be asking.

because at some point i may buy a fj40 with a tired engine and im going to want to know where to go to get it rebuilt and rebuilt well by someone who will stand behind the hype and has a proven track record.

this goes for the other guys (jim, gary kardum) mentioned too...again im not arguing im just wondering what you can show to back up your claims. in a friendly manner please.

also note that i start getting real nervous when people come back from those questions with a defensive attitude. im not challenging your workmanship nor knowledge nor your manliness or anything of the sort here, would just like to hear some testimonials to what you say.

>seem to thing that a Toyota factory is some sort of temple to be worshiped at.

by the way thats sort of overdramatizing the case here. i dont think a toyota is a temple at all. all i think is that i bought a 60 with 225k on the original motor and the only reason i swapped it out was over smog and power issues (and NOT hot rod power issues...i just wasnt content with the rated horsepower which im pretty sure the motor still produced), but mostly the increasing difficulty of getting a carbed motor to pass cali emissions regulations...and i think that longevity speaks for itself.

one love
jah bill

 

[Mace]

i cant. but heres something, since you say to back it up could you please submit one or two referrals from people whose motor has been rebuilt by you and have experienced no problems in like 150k miles? by that i mean it was put together correctly the first time, installed and never de/reinstalled, and never really had to be messed with except for normal maintenance issues?

im not arguing with you im just asking the same thing you seem to be asking.

JB, how many people in this thread have given referrals to Mudrack already?
There is your proof..

personally i think it will NO WAY be "better than new",

What "proof" do you have for this??


Man, you made the statement without any actual knowledge of facts. Jsut a lot of conjecture. then seem to get annoyed that there are people who not only don't agree with you, but have done what you say is not possible.

I hope when you actually do need a rebuilt motor you actually do some research instead of making unsubstantiated claims...

 

[jb welda]

>JB, how many people in this thread have given referrals to Mudrack already?

um, well i just reviewed the thread and the answer i come up with is: zero.

none that met the criteria i stated anyway.

im not going to get into a war with you mace even though it seems thats what you want, but all that last post you posted did was make me think youre getting all defensive about something youre not even involved in first hand and you may have read what i think about defensive attitudes in situations like this.

anyway what im asking for is facts and testimonials *from customers of the people here saying they build a better than stock motor* (that could be also referred to as "doing research") and im trying to do it in a friendly and nonconfrontational way. but that doesnt seem to be how this board operates sometimes.

so...any testimonials please?

one love
jah bill

 

[Mace]

War? Hardly.. I am just trying to figure out where you are coming from.

You state that you are trying to be non confrontational.. But do you honestly think that a statement like "personally i think it will NO WAY be "better than new" is nonconfrontational?? Considering there are members on this board that rebuild motors for a living. Just think about it for a sec..

If you want testimonials from people that have used, Mark, Jim or gary just ask. Don't throw all sorts of extra "it's not possible" crap in there before you know a single thing about what you are talking about.