Help with internal block leak - not head gasket.

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RavenTai said:
CDan posted pics of the timign cover when he had the major oil leak but I cannot find those now
Click to expand...

Raven,
I took those pics and don't think Dan has a copy though he might. I can search and repost if needed. The pic I am thinking about is the inside of the new timing cover that Dan had on hand in case it was needed (it wasn't needed.)

You or Doug let me know.

-B-
 
Beowulf said:
The pic I am thinking about is the inside of the new timing cover that Dan had on hand
-B-
Click to expand...


That is exactly the picture I am thinking of.

Just searched under your name and found the "nasty a$$ oil leak" thread

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=8239&page=1&pp=50

But not that picture

I did find a picture of the block side in another thread, I think I see the coolant port (red arrow) there is a ridge between it and the timing chain, is that a second seal surface? If so that makes a timing cover coolant leak internal into the engine less likely.

I would love to see that pic again if you still have it. pic of the timing cover gasket would be helpful also but I doubt anybody has that.
BlockFront.webp
 
Doug:
What about the boiling sound in the cat you had before? Have you check the torque on the head bolts after getting it hot? They may need re-tightening.

Gosh I'm feeling for you after being with you in spirit all through the HG thing.
 
Raven,

If that red thing is a coolant port and it leaked, yeah I see where it would go out the screwdriver pry slot on that side of the timing cover if there's a seal on that long curved surface. I'm fairly certain there is just looking at the area, but it would be great if someone found that picture of Cdan's timing cover.

In fact, if someone can provide any insight into this exact area (timing cover) regarding any seals that hold back coolant it would be a HUGE bit of intel for me as a leak here would be into an unpressurized area of oil flow - one of two unpressurized oil areas I'm interested in. The other is the circular oil port on the back of the engine's head, of course.

DougM
 
did you drain a tad of fluid from the oil pan to see if coolant comes out?
 
MH - the 'boiling' sound in the cats is still there, but I've judged that normal. Normal because my neighbor's 40th also does it, and because during teardown there was zero evidence coolant went into the exhaust. Uniformly dirty pistons, exhaust ports, exhaust valves and exhaust manifolds.

There is no way to retorque the head. The camshafts are installed atop them and it would require another complete teardown to within 10 minutes of removing the head to accomplish. Thanks, though.

DougM
 
E,

No I haven't. It's so painfully obvious from the dipstick and oil filler cap that I have water in the oil.

DougM
 
Doug,

When and how *exactly* is your coolant disappearing?

On my 3FE, I had similar symptoms, namely loss of coolant and an obvious resulting sludge under the oil filler cap. I had *no* overheating or performance issues, no bubbles in the coolant reservoir, no moisture out the tailpipe, yada yada. Here's exactly how it was disappearing: At operating temp, it would suck coolant right out of the system, and hence coolant right out of the overflow into the radiator. Never any air/blow-by gases anywhere! Drive for an hour, and the coolant in the reservoir was noticably lower before the engine even started to cool, but again, no bubbles, and no air in the radiator, ever.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I "resolved" this issue with a tube of Alumiseal. As you can imagine, I am following this thread with some interest.

Curtis
 
IdahoDoug said:
E,

No I haven't. It's so painfully obvious from the dipstick and oil filler cap that I have water in the oil.

DougM
Click to expand...

yes, but there is a difference between having 3 quarts of water on the bottom of the pan and a few drops hat made some emulsion... Would be good to know which , no?
 
Doug

I once had a Datsun 510 that had the water pump bearing go bad. The impeller then carved a hole into the timing chain cover and proceeded to pump water directly into the motor. I ended up with at least a gallon of water mixed with the oil - what a mess.

Doesn't sound like this is your problem based on your description, I only threw it out as something for you to think about.

Tom
 
E,

Yeah, I agree with what you're wondering - it's just that the quantity into the oil is not going to directly translate into volume in the oil due to the ability of the oil system to handle and rid itself of some water that normally gets in there due to condensation. The oil gets to operating temp and boils off the water which ends up as vapor in the crank case and valve cover that gets sucked out by the PCV valve. In my case, the amount of water in the oil at the end of each day seems to have stabilized with the rate of heat induced evaporation.

So, I guess by proxy we're getting an estimate that these engines can burn off about a half pint of water from the oil per day?

I'll pop the drain tomorrow and see what happens.

Tom,

Thanks - that's the kind of stuff I want to hear. I ran into a guy on a SAR shoot the other day who told me of a difficult water loss diagnosis on a car. They pressurized the cooling system and were able to hear it getting past the water pump bushing straight into the oil pan somehow.

DougM
 
CJ,

On my engine, the lowest overflow level is always in the morning after it has cooled and the contracting water volume (from cooling) draws the overflow tank down a bit. I draw a line on a piece of tape on the bottle each morning. I have not observed it during driving as at operating temp and various stages of warmup or cooldown the overflow tank will go up and down in normal response (this is a normal function of the overflow tank). So, dead stone cold has always been my base line.
 
Doug I was busy all day yesterday so I will respond here. I think the idea you had of pulling the oil pan and putting pressure on the coolant is a great idea. Then you may find a dribble or a line of coolant coming from where ever it may be leaking from. I would also think that it will loose more when cold, I do not think you have a combustion leak because of the amout of coolant lose you have. If you have made real sure there is no external leaks on part of the external system. and you believe it is internal, then pulling the pan(both, as much as a pain as it is) and putting pressure to the coolant system and seeing where a leak may be coming from is the best option you have to knowing where the leak is. I too after thinks and reading the threads think it is not the oil cooler. then front timing cover I still have to think about, I have a block out side I will look at today, and see what I can see. Take pictures if I find any thing and figure out how to post them later robbie
 
Doug, I wonder how much evaporation of coolant in the oil there could be. After all, the oil would have to be above 212 or more for long periods of time, and then it could recondense someplace colder. No idea how hot the oil gets. And if -as is often suggested here- gas can stay in oil for long periods of time, water should do so even more readily.
 
btw, you did check that you did not have a leak *outside* the engine that would explain the huge loss, right? a hose someplace maybe as a result of the recent work? Could be a coincidence that there is some coolant in the oil?

I'd give it a thorough onceover before digging in again, if you haven't already...
 
i think E has a point about the amount of fluid you are losing being a challenge for the motor to just burn off. can you collect vapours from the pcv and see if there is any moisture there? For that matter I would think the hoses and valve would be soaking wet when cold if you were venting that much fluid through that system.
 
Doug & Raven,
I will look for the timing chain cover pics at lunch and post them if I can find them.

I found these.

Timingchaincover_Back_1.JPG



Links to the others since they are also large images.

Another of the inside of the timing chain cover:
http://hdcruisers.angeltowns.net/images/Timingchaincover_1.JPG

Oil pickup on the timing chain cover:
http://hdcruisers.angeltowns.net/images/Oilpickupontimingchaincover.JPG

This is the inside of the water pump:
http://hdcruisers.angeltowns.net/images/Waterpump_Inside.JPG

Front of the timing chain cover:
http://hdcruisers.angeltowns.net/images/Timingchaincover_Front_1.JPG

-B-
 
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Just got done carefully checking over the entire exterior of the engine using a UV light and the UV dye has been in the coolant for a week. I'm proud to say that there's not even a faint trace of an exterior leak so I did my job right!

So, got an appointment with an experienced race shop for the head Thursday. Will be talking to Robbie once before I start swinging wrenches again. I'm also going to pull the valve cover and look for dye flowing down the oil returns with the coolant pressurized to see if I can confirm it's a HG leak. If I cannot see this then I'll have to step back for a while and think about it. I HOPE I can confirm it's coming out the HG and dropping all the way down to the oil pan - best of all worlds 'cause I'm now setup for that repair.

DougM

Robbie - I PM'd you for your phone number....
 
Never mind - found Robbie's number..
 
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