Now I love my 4Runners, LC and LX and where they have taken me over the last 30 years and I consider myself a fanboy. But I am in agreement with the op. You can’t deny that rads, mirrors, starters, amps, roof/cowl/windshield leaks, broken cabin filter doors, door lock actuators, corroded connectors, AHC globes, KDSS valve freezes and valley leaks are common discussion points here. Don’t shoot me, or him, because I’m pointing out what is common knowledge but some things that we, as a group, feel comfortable living with. Sometimes we sound like the Tesla guys that keep repeating that Musk can do no wrong. Take off the rose coloured glasses and look at the evidence clearly. What would we say if Benz sold contaminated oil? I may have an out sized expectation but I’m starting to wonder if this is really “quality” or is the competition just that far behind? Again, I love my truck.
Help me understand the appeal. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter AnyMal
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- Thread starter
- #42
Thanks for all the input, and some laughs lol.
I see several people mention to sell and let go, but in reality, my plans for the truck aren't even 20% complete.
I aint giving up man!!! Andd i like messing with a few of you here too much to abandon the forum. A few. lol.
I bought this truck with the intention to own long term, and continuously build, getting progressively more aggressive.
I thought i should wait through end of year when my now obviously useless warranty expires but that has clearly gone out the window.
These plans will be accelerated soon, as you can probably tell, since the honeymoon has definitely worn off.
Also, remember that a lot of these pain points are LX centered.
Like AHC, premium gas, aftermarket being total ass for the '16+ black sheep, s***ty factory wheels, and increased weight, 8 spd. aetc...
Plus, from my experience worst of all is AHC trucks never being able to be aligned properly. Ever.
Last time we tried to do an alignment with the truck running AHC pressurized normal mode the t-case impeded the rollback scan in neutral.
Its not like the T case can be manually disengaged like the 100. Some of you flat tow guys, with the 40 page threads understand...
The truck would not roll by hand until engine was off. Im still trying to figure out a safe way around that. The shop wont drive it reverse on the lift ramps.
I think i just have to remind everyone that the sentiment most of the forum is expressing is from a large sample ofowners that off-road and expect to beat things up and know how to deal with it. I think some of you even enjoy breaking things
.
There are some old-heads too that i appreciate who buy multiple models brand new and keep them stock like @Tex68w @04UZJ100, and Im not disagreeing here.
The overall is there, and I'm with you, but the joy just isn't there for me. Specially not stock.
Im in the process of getting the joy back. But its a long windy uphill road, more so than i think I bargained for.
On the other hand, i would definitely get rid of it if there were literally ANY alternative on the market.
My real problem is i don't want a "truck truck" with a bed.
So a G is the only thing that is a direct comparison and its double the price, with more costly parts and maintenance to boot.
In case anyone is wondering, i have access to two bone stock 16+ LXs to comparison drive anytime i want via two neighbors.
I have a GX in the family, an RX, and this is my second LX. Im currently shopping for a used tesla probably since the prices have crashed for my second vehicle.
I have a very good understanding of how the truck rides and operates stock. There is nothing "wrong" with my example.
The ones around me all exhibit the same lean, the same creaks, the same crashing over bumps, the same choosy AHC ECU, and the same poor overall drive experience (dog transmission, handling, brakes etc) that mine does. One is on 20s. One is on 21s.
In any case, the mirror housing failing is well known. On mime, its not the housing though for some reason.
Just the internal mirror mount bracket which is of course all plastic.
And just for some background im an ICT engineer and have managed extremely complex multi hundred million dollar development projects around the world.
I will be installing my supercharger at home. By myself. Because i can, and i like to let my nuts hang every once in a while.
Im learning this as I go sure, but my mind is attuned to the complexity, planning, and caveats that are involved with such things.
Plus, i read up for 3 years before I touched anything. And I'm pretty handy.
Nothing ive done to the truck has caused any issue or failed, and it actually rides, brakes and handles better than stock.
With this last preload mod, the suspension finally feels right. So im abandoning the additional lift plans. I like it where it is.
Ive been wanting to build one of these out for a long time. But one thing i definitely did learn, is that mods are a dirty game.
Next time i buy this sort of vehicle, if ever, I will get something capable off the lot.
Ive learned that no amount of specialized mods will reward you like a raptor from the factory floor would.
EDIT:
For all the fan-men (im not trying to be insulting when using boy).
I recently took my sisters GX for her last free service interval at Lexus, and the loaner RX i got had fantastic brakes. MINT.
I just checked and the rotors are larger diameter than mine... Nevermind the pre 16s...
I see several people mention to sell and let go, but in reality, my plans for the truck aren't even 20% complete.
I aint giving up man!!! Andd i like messing with a few of you here too much to abandon the forum. A few. lol.
I bought this truck with the intention to own long term, and continuously build, getting progressively more aggressive.
I thought i should wait through end of year when my now obviously useless warranty expires but that has clearly gone out the window.
These plans will be accelerated soon, as you can probably tell, since the honeymoon has definitely worn off.
Also, remember that a lot of these pain points are LX centered.
Like AHC, premium gas, aftermarket being total ass for the '16+ black sheep, s***ty factory wheels, and increased weight, 8 spd. aetc...
Plus, from my experience worst of all is AHC trucks never being able to be aligned properly. Ever.
Last time we tried to do an alignment with the truck running AHC pressurized normal mode the t-case impeded the rollback scan in neutral.
Its not like the T case can be manually disengaged like the 100. Some of you flat tow guys, with the 40 page threads understand...
The truck would not roll by hand until engine was off. Im still trying to figure out a safe way around that. The shop wont drive it reverse on the lift ramps.
I think i just have to remind everyone that the sentiment most of the forum is expressing is from a large sample ofowners that off-road and expect to beat things up and know how to deal with it. I think some of you even enjoy breaking things
.There are some old-heads too that i appreciate who buy multiple models brand new and keep them stock like @Tex68w @04UZJ100, and Im not disagreeing here.
The overall is there, and I'm with you, but the joy just isn't there for me. Specially not stock.
Im in the process of getting the joy back. But its a long windy uphill road, more so than i think I bargained for.
On the other hand, i would definitely get rid of it if there were literally ANY alternative on the market.
My real problem is i don't want a "truck truck" with a bed.
So a G is the only thing that is a direct comparison and its double the price, with more costly parts and maintenance to boot.
In case anyone is wondering, i have access to two bone stock 16+ LXs to comparison drive anytime i want via two neighbors.
I have a GX in the family, an RX, and this is my second LX. Im currently shopping for a used tesla probably since the prices have crashed for my second vehicle.
I have a very good understanding of how the truck rides and operates stock. There is nothing "wrong" with my example.
The ones around me all exhibit the same lean, the same creaks, the same crashing over bumps, the same choosy AHC ECU, and the same poor overall drive experience (dog transmission, handling, brakes etc) that mine does. One is on 20s. One is on 21s.
In any case, the mirror housing failing is well known. On mime, its not the housing though for some reason.
Just the internal mirror mount bracket which is of course all plastic.
And just for some background im an ICT engineer and have managed extremely complex multi hundred million dollar development projects around the world.
I will be installing my supercharger at home. By myself. Because i can, and i like to let my nuts hang every once in a while.
Im learning this as I go sure, but my mind is attuned to the complexity, planning, and caveats that are involved with such things.
Plus, i read up for 3 years before I touched anything. And I'm pretty handy.
Nothing ive done to the truck has caused any issue or failed, and it actually rides, brakes and handles better than stock.
With this last preload mod, the suspension finally feels right. So im abandoning the additional lift plans. I like it where it is.
Ive been wanting to build one of these out for a long time. But one thing i definitely did learn, is that mods are a dirty game.
Next time i buy this sort of vehicle, if ever, I will get something capable off the lot.
Ive learned that no amount of specialized mods will reward you like a raptor from the factory floor would.
EDIT:
For all the fan-men (im not trying to be insulting when using boy).
I recently took my sisters GX for her last free service interval at Lexus, and the loaner RX i got had fantastic brakes. MINT.
I just checked and the rotors are larger diameter than mine... Nevermind the pre 16s...
Show me a more reliable SUV alternative to the 200 LC. Hell, I’ve looked.
My wife drives a 2017 expedition. So far knock on wood, the engine has been reliable, but the 18 plus ecoboost are having lots of cam phaser failures. Some are on their third set of phasers. This is on a truck that’s 4 years old.
And there is the dumpster fire over at gm. The afm caused Christmas tree lights, excessive oil consumption, and ultimately, engine failure at 100k miles. Oh, and those trannies commonly fail at 60-80k miles. And then there is the magnetic ride shocks that go out every 50k miles, and the ac condenser guaranteed to fail at 70k miles.
Do I sound salty? I am. I had a suburban that spent more time at the dealer than in my driveway, and the service center was 100% rat ass.
So a 10 year old LC will eventually need a starter, a radiator, and might need the valley pan gasket resealed. Which of those would strand you? Just the starter. The 200 reliability combined with good dealer service makes me a huge Mr T fan. Again, show me a more reliable SUV, new or used. I’ll wait.
There's no such thing. And if there were, a Raptor certainly is not it. I think I've shared I have a close buddy with Raptors that is always on trail rides with me.
He got rid of his 2nd gen Raptor on 37s, top shelf kings and everything else. The mods never panned out the way social media presents it, and he could never get the suspension dialed in without compromises. Tons of visits to specialists. Guess what he was looking hard at after selling it - the LX because frankly he saw how superior it was towing a big travel trailer, how much easier it handled mixed off roading and even largely kept up in Baja runs, and the superior comfort when off-road because his daughters remind him they'd rather ride in my car.
He's on a 3rd gen now and vowed to keep it stock because it's got that refined factory tuning and balance. That was 2 mths ago. He's now back to the slippery slope of modding with 37s, lift, control arms, because it's not keeping up with our trail runs.
Modding is a dirty game to your point. There's more to it than piece and parts.
- Thread starter
- #45
According to comment #30, the GX 460. LOLOL
Surprised he went to a 3rd gen and didn't opt for the factory 37's. He should enjoy all of the little rattles and failures on that truck as well.
Yes, he wanted factory 37s. He also wants the Raptor R or VelociRaptor. He's got money to throw at this. Even though he has an in with his local dealer, they can't get allocation.
Failures are real, and it got bad enough with his 2nd gen. Engine issues ultimately why he got rid of the 2nd gen.
This will sound bias (and i am NEVER bias )…but clearly you have the means…why not sell it and get a late model LC from southern states and start new. From your experience and what you wrote, AHC seems to be a major issue on YOUR LX.
GX has KDSS. LC has KDSS. Both have traditional coils and shocks that are easily modified / replaced. GX and LC have similar electronics…nothing too fancy. LC is even easier to put on rock sliders than GX! LC has better clearances than GX…so it can clear mall speed bumps better.
Just get late model LC…2018+.
)…but clearly you have the means…why not sell it and get a late model LC from southern states and start new. From your experience and what you wrote, AHC seems to be a major issue on YOUR LX. GX has KDSS. LC has KDSS. Both have traditional coils and shocks that are easily modified / replaced. GX and LC have similar electronics…nothing too fancy. LC is even easier to put on rock sliders than GX! LC has better clearances than GX…so it can clear mall speed bumps better.
Just get late model LC…2018+.
- Thread starter
- #49
This will sound bias (and i am NEVER bias
GX has KDSS. LC has KDSS. Both have traditional coils and shocks that are easily modified / replaced. GX and LC have similar electronics…nothing too fancy. LC is even easier to put on rock sliders than GX! LC has better clearances than GX…so it can clear mall speed bumps better.
Just get late model LC…2018+.
Only problem Tiger is that im Persian. I cant be in no Toyota
.Jokes aside, as far as LC vs LX, I wouldn't really care, but i cant stand touch-screens in cars. I actually like the joystick a lot.
Not as much as i liked I-drive knobs, but its pretty damn good. I would def not mind a 3" lifted LC on kings looks wise.
One of the main reasons i WOULD jump ship from AHC though, that I love/hate, is that i cant set the ride height.
AHC is such a dumb system that at a standstill, it will not even register the steering position and thinks your lifting a wheel, then dropping the front end thinking its too high based on sensor readings. Its dumb, its a dumb, stupid system. Mechanically brilliant, but logically highly regarded.
Even worse, it dumps release valves to lower, with no precision whatsoever, so because we cant dial corner spring rates, one side, DRIVER, will sag more than the other in the valve dump process being significantly heavier than the other. It will only level back at re pressurization, once the wheel is straightened because at that point the lift pressure will equalize with both rams actuated.
Trust me, i am an expert in AHC and my AHC is in tip top shape.
I may even put fresh globes on this next teardown but i think it can wait another year.
But i wish i could just crack the ECU and tell it that i dont mind being in H until 35mph.
Or be able to set the valve dump timing for 65mph+ to control highway height and rake for example as i please.
Sad part is the 600 is practically the same system, just dual stage in the rear. So a pretty marginal improvement there.
You don’t sound like much of an expert. My lx470 has 350k miles and is on original globes. My lx570 is on original globes as well and I’m about to roll 100k miles. I haven’t serviced the system at all, and feel no compelling need to.Only problem Tiger is that im Persian. I cant be in no Toyota
Jokes aside, as far as LC vs LX, I wouldn't really care, but i cant stand touch-screens in cars. I actually like the joystick a lot.
Not as much as i liked I-drive knobs, but its pretty damn good. I would def not mind a 3" lifted LC on kings looks wise.
One of the main reasons i WOULD jump ship from AHC though, that I love/hate, is that i cant set the ride height.
AHC is such a dumb system that at a standstill, it will not even register the steering position and thinks your lifting a wheel, then dropping the front end thinking its too high based on sensor readings. Its dumb, its a dumb, stupid system. Mechanically brilliant, but logically highly regarded.
Even worse, it dumps release valves to lower, with no precision whatsoever, so because we cant dial corner spring rates, one side, DRIVER, will sag more than the other in the valve dump process being significantly heavier than the other. It will only level back at re pressurization, once the wheel is straightened because at that point the lift pressure will equalize with both rams actuated.
Trust me, i am an expert in AHC and my AHC is in tip top shape.
I may even put fresh globes on this next teardown but i think it can wait another year.
But i wish i could just crack the ECU and tell it that i dont mind being in H until 35mph.
Or be able to set the valve dump timing for 65mph+ to control highway height and rake for example as i please.
Sad part is the 600 is practically the same system, just dual stage in the rear. So a pretty marginal improvement there.
My lx570 ahc is miles better than my lx470. Damn reliable, too. I’ve put 45k miles on mine with zero problems. I’ve never had it aligned, and the wear on the tires is spot on. Sorry the LC isn’t status enough for you
- Thread starter
- #51
interesting. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, i owned a 470 too. That system is trash.
Just to add, since you're obviously super informed, you may want to read your service manual and see what it says about AHC service.
After 6 years of AHC ownership, lots of seat time, and countless hours spent on this website, I feel very well informed. These trucks are made to be abused for 20 years or 250k miles, in a 3rd world country. While I don’t live in a 3rd world country, I have witnessed how these trucks hold up over time. Nothing, at any price, compares… except a 70, and we don’t get those.
- Thread starter
- #53
Its 25 years and this is exactly the untrue and quite obviously false trope that inspired me to write this post in the first place.
So we've come full circle i guess...
Im happy youre enjoying things, and not looking for an argument. Do me a favor and at least change your black AHC fluid.
It will have a better chance long term. Also shocks, coils and globes are wear consumables. No matter the brand.
Least you can do is change your hydraulic fluid. Its a lil more tricky than the 100, but still very simple.
I spent a lot of time thinking about your original post, specifically about why I’m sunk into this platform. And I think you have to look across all of the capabilities and uses for this truck to appreciate its flaws.
Daily driving
They can totally be daily driven, parked on the street, fit into most garages (until you but a long add weboost antennae on like I did). It’s certainly not as usable as my model 3 in the city, but totally doable.
Long haul / family truckster
We’ve put thousand of highway miles on our 570. Across the PNW and southwest multiple times. It just soaked up the miles And inspires so much confidence. Are there better options? Sure. A minivan is the obvious choice. Heck my gmt800 suburban might have the edge here. More room for stuff and 31g fuel tank.
Obligatory Bucees photo for my Texas brethren:
Off-road toy/camper/wheeler
These platforms absolutely hold their own in almost any terrain. But is it as good as a wrangler or bronco? No way.
My point is that I’m in it because it’s good at all of those scenarios. That’s important to me. If I only used it for one of those things, there are way less compromised options for each.
Daily driving
They can totally be daily driven, parked on the street, fit into most garages (until you but a long add weboost antennae on like I did). It’s certainly not as usable as my model 3 in the city, but totally doable.
Long haul / family truckster
We’ve put thousand of highway miles on our 570. Across the PNW and southwest multiple times. It just soaked up the miles And inspires so much confidence. Are there better options? Sure. A minivan is the obvious choice. Heck my gmt800 suburban might have the edge here. More room for stuff and 31g fuel tank.
Obligatory Bucees photo for my Texas brethren:
Off-road toy/camper/wheeler
These platforms absolutely hold their own in almost any terrain. But is it as good as a wrangler or bronco? No way.
My point is that I’m in it because it’s good at all of those scenarios. That’s important to me. If I only used it for one of those things, there are way less compromised options for each.
I've been a Jeep guy (TJ) for years, always hearing about the Toyota "reliability" from guys in my local 4x4 groups.
After a while I decided to jump into a used LX and see how it goes. Completely different animal than the 96-06 inline 6 Jeeps I came from. (They were pretty damn reliable).
I was a little surprised by the amount of items I had to tackle in the first year of ownership, radiator, door lock actuators, starter etc... All of these items I do ultimately chock up to being consumables.
The single biggest thing that has made me pause are these threads on broken valve springs. I have seen where some people note that replacing valve springs sub 200K miles is not that bad and I disagree. Only time will tell if this is a prevalent problem. Other than that I will keep replacing parts as necessary to get my full 25yr life out of this thing.
After a while I decided to jump into a used LX and see how it goes. Completely different animal than the 96-06 inline 6 Jeeps I came from. (They were pretty damn reliable).
I was a little surprised by the amount of items I had to tackle in the first year of ownership, radiator, door lock actuators, starter etc... All of these items I do ultimately chock up to being consumables.
The single biggest thing that has made me pause are these threads on broken valve springs. I have seen where some people note that replacing valve springs sub 200K miles is not that bad and I disagree. Only time will tell if this is a prevalent problem. Other than that I will keep replacing parts as necessary to get my full 25yr life out of this thing.
- Thread starter
- #56
I spent a lot of time thinking about your original post, specifically about why I’m sunk into this platform. And I think you have to look across all of the capabilities and uses for this truck to appreciate its flaws.
Daily driving
They can totally be daily driven, parked on the street, fit into most garages (until you but a long add weboost antennae on like I did). It’s certainly not as usable as my model 3 in the city, but totally doable.
View attachment 3242813
Long haul / family truckster
We’ve put thousand of highway miles on our 570. Across the PNW and southwest multiple times. It just soaked up the miles And inspires so much confidence. Are there better options? Sure. A minivan is the obvious choice. Heck my gmt800 suburban might have the edge here. More room for stuff and 31g fuel tank.
Obligatory Bucees photo for my Texas brethren:
View attachment 3242815
Off-road toy/camper/wheeler
These platforms absolutely hold their own in almost any terrain. But is it as good as a wrangler or bronco? No way.
View attachment 3242816
My point is that I’m in it because it’s good at all of those scenarios. That’s important to me. If I only used it for one of those things, there are way less compromised options for each.
Obligotary upvote for bucees. As you would say *
* chefs kiss. LOLOnce I correct the remaining shortcomings, mainly the aux tank, I'm gonna be racking up some major miles myself.
The 33s really are kind of a sweet spot right now and with my gearing. its basically factory feeling. I don't break 2k rpm at 75mph.
Butttt, im going to end up on 34x10.5 since im not adding more lift. Ill have a true 1" tire lift at that point since its 2" over stock fitment diameter.
After the 6 years of research here and elsewhere since i got turned onto real suspension modding and got the bug, I've learned theres not such thing as a lift.
So bigger tires is the new final goal, and i hope I stop at 34". Im very happy with where my suspension is now in damping, stability, and control.
Turbo8s rear spacer is the last piece of the puzzle. Im so happy i waited instead of making another amazon mistake out of desperation.
Then a true 4 wheel alignment with the adjustable trails on the shelf and im golden.
Your point is the most valid ive heard so far. Once i use this thing for actual fun (not just going to costco although that is getting more fun as i age), im sure i will be reminded why i opted for a 10mpg getting, old school 7,000lb offroad SUV.
I just need yall to talk me out of the supercharger. Like my wife is trying to do.
Don't do the supercharger. Why bother on a 6k lb pig where adventure, reliability, and capability are more important. To @tbisaacs point, the 200-series is awesome because of its bandwidth.
A supercharger will narrow that bandwidth. I've been on that side of the fence many times tuning customers cars and the tradeoffs of forced induction, especially a car that was never designed for it from the get go are enormous. People tell you how much faster their car is. But they don't tell you about the constant tinkering, small and big problems, annoyances. For maybe 1 second faster 0-60?
If you want a fast car, get a separate car where it will actually be fast.
I understand the appeal and occasionally find myself wanting one, too. But...
- Surely won't help with longevity and reliability
- Adds extra service items
- Lots of potential for things to go wrong during installation
- Will make fuel economy even worse
- No amount of mods will make a tall, 6000lb SUV behave like a 911
I say enjoy the LX for what it is, and don't try to make it something it's not supposed to be.
- Thread starter
- #59
Ding ding. Thanks boys.
I need that itch scratched bad, but the tesla should do fine for that
.Hell, its a third of the cost of that EV purchase.
I think aux tank and iKamper 3 is the ticket right now to feel whole again.
,,,
....
And an exhaust? LOL
Sorry the LC isn’t status enough for you
I personally look at the LC as more "status" than LX. The OG connoisseur discreet luxury status
With regards to the brakes, it's all relative. I think they're fine, even on pre-16's. Then again, I run a 1200+hp street car on stock brakes and drove a '51 choptop Mercury that required two feet on the brake pedal and back fully against the seat.
Im not sure I would necessarily want bigger rotors or calipers on this platform considering it's use. That could potentially limit to larger sized wheels (19"+) which is a negative in my book.
