Head Gasket toast- need advice

[Andrewsreef]

Update on repair.

Well, finally back up after Hurricane Frances. A real scare. We had lots of trees down and poweroutages let alone 5 or more inches of rain and it is still raining!!!

Robbie, thank you for the detailed response. I wish I could get you guys to do this job but that is not feasable. The mechanic was not reluctant to do the job, just did not want to take my $ as he was not totally sure it needed the repair. Now that he is into it, he agrees it should be much better when done.

I got to go check on the truck and speke to the mechanic again today to check on progress. He did show me some problem areas relating to the EGR that hopefully are going to help my pinging problems. I thought I cleaned everything well when I replaced the VSV but he showed me passages on the intake plenum (attaches to the Intake Manifold and throttle body attaches to it) that were totally clogged with carbon. That would proably explain why this thing still would ping some even under light acceleration (I know I said earlier the pinging was 90% better but it got worse in the 2 weeks or so leading up to the repair). He is being very carful and cleaning everything throughly. The head came back "a ok" so that is good (I hope). Robbie, I hope they checked it carefully at the machine shop.

My mechanic was surprised today when they tried to remove the intake and found the wire harness going through it. They are attempting (thank you Robbie) to get that done today if they can figure out how to put it back together.

I should have it back Thursday or Friday so we shall see how it goes.

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Beowulf]

Andrew,

>> Now that he is into it, he agrees it should be much better when done. <<

Has he found the source of the major oil leak between the block and the head? As I recall, that was the reason for tearing that deep into the engine and having the mechanic pull the head. The way you described it, the oil was leaking all down the engine into the starter, onto the transmission, and all over the oil pan. Where was all that oil coming from?

>> ... he was not totally sure it needed the repair. <<
That sounded like a poorly installed valve cover gasket to me :whoops: ; but without pictures....

-B-

 

[Andrewsreef]

Not the valve cover. THe oil was coming from the seam. I saw it and it was definately seaping. You do not sound to hopeful this is going to work out??? I really think it will. I will post again after getting it back.

THe mechanic doing the work and the mechanic who own the shop are 2 different people. Mechanic doing the work is really detailed and appears to be doing a good job. The mechanic who owns the shop is very honest and does not usually do head gaskets unless it is a complete failure. The mechanic doing the work is the one who thinks it will be much better.

I still feel it is to much of a risk to have driven the truck in its present condition waiting for it to fail and do more damage.

Just my 2 cents.

I think Cdan summed it up well. "Look here: http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_headgasket.htm If you have anything like this, jerk the head now".

Initially mine did not look like that but it sure did before it went in.


Thanks

Andrew

 

[Scamper]

From a prior post by C-Dan

Scamper (Tom) had his head milled by the Toyota dealership when he blew a head gasket a while back.

-B-

For a computer geek, you have a mind like a steel trap -B- .

Yes, it 'twaz me. The dealer invoice indicated only that it had been milled to +/- 0.005. They didn't indicate if they used a thicker HG or not.

Hopefully, they didn't have to remove too much from the head after having read Robbie's comments

I don't notice anything different with respect to power output, but then the S/C covers a multitude of sins (or weaknesses ).

I still suspect that the carbon may be what's been causing the ping. The EGR may have initially caused the carbon buildup, and a constant flow of 93 octain may only have made it worse in a stock engine. Well, that, and the wiring thing, and then there's the HG thing, and...

 

[Andrewsreef]

Thanks Scamper, you had to remind me what a POS this thing is. Hopefully it will be well now and I can drive it another 200k just to get my money out of it!!!! Got to get to the 15 cents a mile goal. If it is not well after this, one of those new 100 series might be the ticket

Thanks

Andrew

 

[acf]

Hate to see you going through all this. Good luck, dude, sounds like you need some.

 

[Andrewsreef]

Well Robbie and others. When you are right, you are right. I picked up the truck tonight just before the shop closed. They said the head was warped so they resurfaced it. They did not get the specks per my request so I have no idea what they took off. Got in it and I instantly knew it was not right. They wanted me to drive it overnight to see for sure but it is definatley going back in the AM.

Bad taping noise which at first I thought was a valves or somting up in the top of the motor. The odd thing is the taping is not load from under the hood. Valves sound normal. On further examination under the truck, they forgot to tighten one of the bolts to the exhaust manifold. I re-torgued them all myself thinking that would fix it. Still a taping noise from the moment it starts. If they forgot to tighten the exhaust manifold, no telling what the forgot inside the motor. I think I am really really screwed now.

They are really nice but must be incompetent. In the AM, I am going to get them to either explain to me what the heck is going on, or they can take it to the dealer or someone else who is competnent to fix it. If they do not agree, I will stop pay on the check in the AM.

Wish me luck as this is one bad nightmare that just keeps getting worse.

 

[Riley]

Sorry Andrew, I feel for you.

Man that sucks

 

[landtank]

sounds like they got the valve shims all mixed up or possibly didn't adjust them if they were ground at the machine shop.

best of luck

 

[IdahoDoug]

Oooh. This is not good. You picked up the vehicle and drove it away even though it was not right. They knew this signifies acceptance of the work done. You're not getting good advice, my friend. I'd want the specific paper work on what the machine shop did, and I'd want the machine shop's contact information.

I'm bummed you're going through this, but you really do seem to be making decisions without all the information you should have. Never accept a vehicle back that is not running to your satisfaction. Never. Once it's driven off their lot, they have a much stronger position legally. Do a keyword search for "mechanic's lien" on Google.

Anyhow... enough bad news from me, eh?

 

[Beowulf]

>> 9/7/2004: The head came back "a ok" so that is good (I hope). <<
>> 9/13/2004: They said the head was warped so they resurfaced it. <<
and
>> If they do not agree, I will stop pay on the check in the AM. <<
and
>> Wish me luck as this is one bad nightmare that just keeps getting worse. <<

I'm starting to feel sorry for the shop owner, the mechanic, and that poor truck.

-B-

 

[Andrewsreef]

I have to agree with all of you on this truck. My decision making is going from bad to worse. IdahoDoug, I should know better than this espacially with my professional backround. For what ever reason, I really trusted these guys. They did head work on my Fatherinlaws 4 runner and they did a great gob.

I knew it was not right and I should not have accepted it. We will see how it goes in the AM. When you speak of shims, does this mean that the valves are severely out of adjustment? Are these the same shims you are refering to? Assuming this is what it is, can this be fixed with a valve adjustment? What is scarry is they either did not hear this noise or they are incompitent. It is very noticable right after start up. A single tap, tap, tap.

If they can not fix it at this point, I will have them send it to the dealer as I do not know anyone else in town who I can trust with this thing.

Andrew

 

[alaskacruiser]

B- Andrew has obviously made some major mistakes, but he's in a tough spot now- I really don't see the need to throw salt in the wound instead of trying to help him out from this point forward.

Andrew- you say "They wanted me to drive it overnight to see for sure but it is definatley going back in the AM." so hopefully they will treat you right and keep it (or send it out to a dealer) until it is fixed. Keep us updated.

 

[landtank]

Andrew, the valves are adjusted by measuring the gap between the cup on the valve and the lobe on the cam and then calculating the proper shim after measuring the thickness of the shim that is already installed. Even though all the caps appear to be the same, each one has it's own shim sitting in the top of it. If they weren't aware of this and just replaced them willy nilly then some valves would be running tight with a threat of burning them while others would be running loose. This is not difficult to correct but it does need to be confirmed that they were aware of this and it was performed correctly.

 

[Andrewsreef]

Landtank, are the caps and shims (proper order) discussed in the FSM? How do I tell them how to figure it out? I am sure they are totally blind to this. I am bringing myFSM with me this AM as they obviously are having trouble reading (FSM or AllData) before they work.

Thanks

 

[landtank]

It's pretty much what I said. You rotate the cam so the high side is away from the valve and then using a set of feeler gauges measure the gap. Once you know the gap you compare it to the factry spec. if it is out of range then you need to remove the shim, measure said shim and then using the supplied chart in the FSM order/replace the old shim with the new calculated shim. Unlike other engines this is done stone cold. So if you were to drive over there this morning it would not be advised to start the process until tomorrow morning to be sure the engine is cooled down completely.

You do have to ask yourself though, do you want to give these guys another shot of fxxxing up the truck further? I understand it's expected to give someone a chance to correct their mistake, but they're not working on some Ford where there are bone yards full of engines in rusted out hulks.

 

[Andrewsreef]

Landtank, thanks for the info. I got it now. You concern is exactly what I am struggling with. What is odd is they do a lot of work on hi-end cars and trucks. Mercedies, Porsha (spelling) and Toyotas. I really want to find one mechanic I take my veichles to and not jump around. I was hoping these guys were it but I really doubt my old mechanic would have returned my truck to me like this. These guys are very nice but may not have the expertise on this truck (or others I assume).

I told them they need to fix it today and let me know exactly what was wrong. If they can't fix it, it is going to the dealer. I made them aware of that also. I did not stop pay on the check as I did not want to be nasty with them at this point.

I will let you know how it works out.

Thanks for all the help and not taking ridiculing me as others have done.

Andrew

 

[IdahoDoug]

Andrew,

Again. I would specifically want to know what the machine shop did. Obviously they machined it - how much? How much was the head warped? If this information is "not available" then either the machine shop's paperwork system is unbelievably slipshod, or your mechanic is lying. That's why I'd want the machine shop contact information. This is a VERY big deal to know - not just a side issue.

DougM

 

[Andrewsreef]

Ok, just an update. My mechanic calls me all happy and tells me to come by the shop. I make the journey to the shop and I get in the truck and fire it up and it sounds PERFECT. Ok Beowulf, put this in your permant memory of my statements and add it to the list of statements I make that convince you I am an idot. It sounded perfect. Very smooth and quiet. I drove it around and it was very smooth and sounded normal.

Turned out there is a bracket on the back of the head I guess is used for pulling the motor. They had it on backwards and it was rubbing the firewall. That also is why I could hear the loud tapping inside the truck but it was not loud outside the truck. It must have been the #6 echoing into the cab. The engine was sounding so load and ruff in the cab I thought it was going to come apart. I am a real

I drove it back to the office and it really seems smooth and no pinging that I could here in the 8 mile or so trip in traffic. Beowulf, if it ever pings again, I am sure you will be convinced I am a liar so I hope it does not start back up. It even has the 1/2 tank of regular gas in it.

The head was surfaced .008 which is what the local machine shop does for overhead cam engines. According to my mechanic it was slightly warped. Hopefully that is not to much to take off but I beleive it is less than what Robbie recomended.

I will post an update in a few days and let everyone know if it is truly fixed or just a passing breath of fresh air.

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Rookie2]

Andrew,

I hope it is as good as it sounds. Then maybe you and 'B' can bury the hatchet.


Rookie2