Early M.Y. 200 Series LC vs LX - Which is the better deal now?

[Madtiger]

If you wanna go full Epstein: "automakers are allowed to claim an SAE certified horsepower number within 1 percent of the measured result—this might allow an automaker whose result was 499 horsepower to claim 500, for example."

While true..........the difference b/w LX and LC engine is 2 HP (381 vs. 383) and 2 Torque (401 vs. 403). Somehow, i just don't see Lexus making this distinction just because it can. Why not make the claim larger or at least make the numbers in big even numbers so that customers can be even more impress? Why not make Lexus LX 385 and 405. Or 390 and 410. etc.

Or is this just a matter of tuning it differently...and thus the end result just happens to be 2 Hp and 2 Tq difference?

 

[Phalen302]

Unless there is a scientific long term study proves that 87 creates issues for LX, it’s all speculation and personal assumptions. So do we have something concrete?

 

[bloc]

While true..........the difference b/w LX and LC engine is 2 HP (381 vs. 383) and 2 Torque (401 vs. 403). Somehow, i just don't see Lexus making this distinction just because it can. Why not make the claim larger or at least make the numbers in big even numbers so that customers can be even more impress? Why not make Lexus LX 385 and 405. Or 390 and 410. etc.

Or is this just a matter of tuning it differently...and thus the end result just happens to be 2 Hp and 2 Tq difference?

If all they can do with the extra octane is .5% (half the allowed fudge factor per SAE) they need to go work somewhere else. That difference still proves nothing. Easily explainable by testing done on different days and/or Lexus wanting to appear to have some advantage over the toyota competitor.

As for octane, when the 200 was released everything with the L badge used premium. That chart pretty plainly shows a gradual shift in corporate strategy toward hybrids and saving money on fuel. I wouldn't at all expect them to reduce the octane requirement on a 12-yr old design, that still happens to be the most expensive vehicle they sell with BY FAR the worst mileage. Potential ES and RX buyers may have been asking why they need to put premium in their vehicles.. Potential LX buyers? hah.

Either way.. NONE OF THIS IS CONCRETE PROOF OF A DIFFERENT CALIBRATION. Teckis dodged my suggestion that he, as a tuner, might have solid examples other than the three I brought up.

 

[Madtiger]

Unless there is a scientific long term study proves that 87 creates issues for LX, it’s all speculation and personal assumptions. So do we have something concrete?

Not scientific.....but the fact that Lexus REQUIRES it.....and even THREATENS voiding warranty if you have engine issues due to low octane gas....is, at least in my book, enough of proof.

 

[Itsky]

Not scientific.....but the fact that Lexus REQUIRES it.....and even THREATENS voiding warranty if you have engine issues due to low octane gas....is, at least in my book, enough of proof.

to be fair, Lexus states “recommended” vs “required”

 

[Madtiger]

to be fair, Lexus states “recommended” vs “required”

Not according to this: Which fuel grade should I use for my Lexus vehicle?

 

[Itsky]

Not according to this: Which fuel grade should I use for my Lexus vehicle?

That does say recommended.

 

[Madtiger]

That does say recommended.

True...i stand corrected. But...that THREAT...if i had a Lexus, then i would use PREMIUM gas. But that's just me.

 

[TeCKis300]

Lots of colorful commentary and it's all fun and good.

The absurdist thing I've heard today is that marketing has anything to do with manuals. Seriously? Next thing we're going to talk about is how octane isn't even a thing and it's a gas company marketing stunt to steal more money out of your coffers. Nor are alchohol percentages in your favorite libation. Marketing.

I'll leave it with - choose your own poison.

 

[bloc]

Lots of colorful commentary and it's all fun and good.

The absurdist thing I've heard today is that marketing has anything to do with manuals. Seriously? Next thing we're going to talk about is how octane isn't even a thing and it's a gas company marketing stunt to steal more money out of your coffers. Nor are alchohol percentages in your favorite libation. Marketing.

I'll leave it with - choose your own poison.

If so, then please stop stating “different calibration” as if it’s a fact.

Per JohnJBs post marketing could very well explain the stated horsepower difference between the two. Impacting what goes into a manual isn’t a stretch at all.

 

[Itsky]

If so, then please stop stating “different calibration” as if it’s a fact.

Per JohnJBs post marketing could very well explain the stated horsepower difference between the two. Impacting what goes into a manual isn’t a stretch at all.

@bloc are you thinking the LX and LC have the same exact Ecu map/calibration, thus same performance. And the only the difference is the recommendations given by Lexus?

 

[turbo8]

I was checking things out for an unrelated issue, I noticed the parts numbers for the ECM/ECU is the same for both the LC and the LX (89661-60G66). This was just for the 2009 model, I didn't check other years as I wasn't concerned with that.

 

[40Man]

Compare specifications for the 2011 Lexus ES 350, which requires 87 octane fuel, and the 2010 model, which required 91. As Toyota's recommendation changed, the 2011 model's output was lowered to 268 hp @ 6,200 rpm from 272 hp @ 6,200 rpm. The ECU is the same for both years. There was a similar change from the 01 to 02 Tundra IIRC.

With the minimal change in HP, I highly doubt the fuel mapping changed.

I know some vehicles will state the HP difference between regular and premium, Toyota should do that.

More telling to me, the ECU part number is the SAME for both LC and LX. 89661-60U51 (13-15 MY).

Logic dictates the difference is solely based on the octane used to test, just like the ES 350.

 

[bloc]

I was checking things out for an unrelated issue, I noticed the parts numbers for the ECM/ECU is the same for both the LC and the LX (89661-60G66). This was just for the 2009 model, I didn't check other years as I wasn't concerned with that.

Dun dun DUNNNNNNN.

Anyone happen to know if said ECUs have to be programmed before install? I know some vehicles are plug & play but some aren't, needing coding for different options and possibly CANBUS VIN. Not sure what we are dealing with here.

@bloc are you thinking the LX and LC have the same exact Ecu map/calibration, thus same performance. And the only the difference is the recommendations given by Lexus?

I'm saying that's possible but I don't know, and so far no one here does due to lack of solid evidence, despite very firm claims that they are different from a specific member here with apparently oracle-like knowledge.

This could all be definitively settled with said evidence.. and yet it remains elusive.

At the end of the day people make their own decisions. We could find for sure they are different and some LX owners would still run RUG. I just want factual statements posted here backed up by evidence, and don't think that's too much to ask for a place people go to seek out information about their trucks.


Wanna know the giant twist in the plot? Day-to-day I run premium in my.. LANDCRUISER. The shock!!! This is mostly based on additional detergents in the premium fuels, since my truck has almost 150k on it now and spends so much time sitting unless I'm on a trip, where I run RUG. The nearest ethanol free fuel is 45 minutes away or I'd be running that plus techron. 87-octane, for the record.

 

[TeCKis300]

@bloc. There is factual evidence presented here by the horse itself. Sure, you question because it's circumstantial. Fair. Whether you want to believe that is your choice. Just please don't suggest to others, that actually own an LX, that it may be okay. That's where I draw the line because I have some measure of expertise in this area. Yet, it's not on me to spend my time to dig up definitive proof.

The burden of proof is on you because you are taking the contrarian position relative to facts.

Want to learn something about software? It's independent of hardware, and hardware part numbers. That is a separate configuration management concern. Ever hear about Tesla's? Same part numbers. Many different versions of software enable different capabilities and performance.

Wanna know the giant twist in the plot? Day-to-day I run premium in my.. LANDCRUISER. The shock!!! This is mostly based on additional detergents in the premium fuels, since my truck has almost 150k on it now and spends so much time sitting unless I'm on a trip, where I run RUG. The nearest ethanol free fuel is 45 minutes away or I'd be running that plus techron. 87-octane, for the record.

You want to learn something else? Your vehicle is calibrated and designed for regular and will run optimially independent of what you're suggesting here. Unless there's already some internal damage or deposits causing knock, running higher octane won't do a thing. At worse, octane as an inhibitor, slows the flame front of a combustion event, such that torque rise per combustion event may time such that it misses the point of max brake torque and ATDC, such that it reduces power and efficiency.

There's specific calibrating that's required when optimizing for specific fuels. Then there's mitigations to keep the engine safe for variation in fuels. This is where you are conflating your opinion.

 

[bloc]

@bloc. There is factual evidence presented here by the horse itself. Sure, you question because it's circumstantial. Fair. Whether you want to believe that is your choice. Just please don't suggest to others, that actually own an LX, that it may be okay. That's where I draw the line because I have some measure of expertise in this area. Yet, it's not on me to spend my time to dig up definitive proof.

The burden of proof is on you because you are taking the contrarian position relative to facts.

Want to learn something about software? It's independent of hardware, and hardware part numbers. That is a separate configuration management concern. Ever hear about Tesla's? Same part numbers. Many different versions of software enable different capabilities and performance.



You want to learn something else? Your vehicle is calibrated and designed for regular and will run optimially independent of what you're suggesting here. Unless there's already some internal damage or deposits causing knock, running higher octane won't do a thing. At worse, octane as an inhibitor, slows the flame front of a combustion event, such that torque rise per combustion event may time such that it misses the point of max brake torque and ATDC, such that it reduces power and efficiency.

There's specific calibrating that's required when optimizing for specific fuels. Then there's mitigations to keep the engine safe for variation in fuels. This is where you are conflating your opinion.

Lexus recommending premium is not evidence of a different calibration. The only fact in that statement is that they recommend or require premium fuel. You can keep asserting "different calibration" as a fact, but I'll keep noting that you don't know it to be true until we see some evidence. You've just avoided that detail because you can't present any, stating as you so often do that your logical conclusion is fact (PERIOD).. that's not how the world works. Plenty of people think the idea of the world being round is absurd. Doesn't make them right. The evidence (not circumstantial) clearly shows that it's not flat.

By the way if you haven't figured out the Marketing Department has incredible input into every facet of these vehicles and everything in them, including the manuals, you haven't been paying attention for the last several decades.

As for software and hardware.. Yes, it's totally possible the ECU needs to be flashed before install. This could be mapping, or simply coding it to the VIN of the vehicle so all the canbus parts play nice together. I doubt we'll get a solid answer from anyone within Toyota that says exactly what is happening. That said, you do realize comparing Toyota software to Tesla is.. absurd, right? You yourself noted how conservative Toyota is in their strategies. Tesla basically defines the opposite.

Are we having reading comprehension issues? I specifically said I run premium for the detergents due to high mileage. This decision has nothing to do with octane.

And still no input on HPTuners and toyota ECM encryption?

 

[TeCKis300]

Lexus recommending premium is not evidence of a different calibration. The only fact in that statement is that they recommend or require premium fuel. You can keep asserting "different calibration" as a fact, but I'll keep noting that you don't know it to be true until we see some evidence. You've just avoided that detail because you can't present any, stating as you so often do that your logical conclusion is fact (PERIOD).. that's not how the world works. Plenty of people think the idea of the world being round is absurd. Doesn't make them right. The evidence (not circumstantial) clearly shows that it's not flat.

By the way if you haven't figured out the Marketing Department has incredible input into every facet of these vehicles and everything in them, including the manuals, you haven't been paying attention for the last several decades.

As for software and hardware.. Yes, it's totally possible the ECU needs to be flashed before install. This could be mapping, or simply coding it to the VIN of the vehicle so all the canbus parts play nice together. I doubt we'll get a solid answer from anyone within Toyota that says exactly what is happening. That said, you do realize comparing Toyota software to Tesla is.. absurd, right? You yourself noted how conservative Toyota is in their strategies. Tesla basically defines the opposite.

Are we having reading comprehension issues? I specifically said I run premium for the detergents due to high mileage. This decision has nothing to do with octane.

And still no input on HPTuners and toyota ECM encryption?

We'll agree to disagree and there's no need to make this personal.

Carry on and maybe you can actually spend some effort showing us evidence to support your position instead of conjecture.

Maybe you can enlighten us to how all the newer 8-speeds getting software flashes must be placebo because they have the same part number and you're not given evidence to actual lines of code being different.

 

[tincan45]

Ugh, this thread went to .

 

[bloc]

Maybe you can enlighten us to how all the newer 8-speeds getting software flashes must be placebo because they have the same part number and you're not given evidence to actual lines of code being different.

How is this relevant? Lexus/toyota clearly identified an error in their coding and addressed it. Owners seem to report improved shift quality as a result.

 

[40Man]

Yes, it is possible that Toyota has a different mapping system for the ECU for the LX vs Land Cruiser, and they incurred the additional cost to do so for a few HP, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me for such a minimal gain. But it is possible.

It is also possible the mapping is exactly the same for the identical engine with identical compression of 10.2:1 (which has arguably the alrgest impact on octane requirements). Anecdotally, I had an old Chevy with the same 10.2:1, and when timed to spec it would knock with 87, but that was before antiknock sensors and corresponding timing retarding occurred automatically.

As stated above, the Lexus manual recommends 91 octane for the 2011 ES 30 and 87 for the 2010 (and as mentioned above, the HP decreases in spec for the 2011 with the move to 87.

Interestingly, the chart referenced by madtiger above now has Lexus recommending premium for the 2011 ES 350 as well, them moving it down to 87 for the 2012 ES 350. Strange that Lexus now recommends a higher octane for the 2011 ES 350 vehicle when the manual states 87.

I also know that Toyota has built many of their vehicles to accept variable octanes and increase performance for towing. I don't recall if this was in my 4R or Tacoma manual, but I know it is out there. This has been discussed ad nauseam on the 4runner and Tacoma forums.

It would probably be telling to get a survey of LX owners that have run regular to determine if there have been any issues with pre-detonation/knocking. I'm guessing antiknock sensors prevent it from occurring.

My guess based on information available to me, based on the small gain in HP for the LX using premium fuel, the LX and LC engines and software are likely identical.

Where I live, ethanol free only comes in Premium, so that is what I run in all my rigs, including my 200 Land Cruiser.