Early M.Y. 200 Series LC vs LX - Which is the better deal now?

[TeCKis300]

the MAIN reason to use PREMIUM in LX is to prevent engine damage long term.

Nailed it. Looking for symptoms of whether 91 octane is required vs systemic and longer term considerations is the difference here.

Your doctor can see very tangible and measurable results from eating junk food. Yet many people do it anyways and "run fine". Until they don't. Engine calibrators likewise use very measurable data that they use to baseline maps. Will you see a symptom of low octane, perhaps not. But longer term, over severe duty use that the vehicle was built for, across the hundreds of thousands of examples of vehicles out there in the varied conditions...

Toyota is conservative and leaves engineering margin on the table to assure long term durability against many conditions. To electively give up that margin, and compound it with other things perhaps all happening at the same time is when one will see the results of their choice.
- Heavy load use
- Extreme temperature
- Bad gas
- High mileage engine with deposits created in prior pre-ignition events (from running lower octane fuel)

 

[bloc]

Nailed it. Looking for symptoms of whether 91 octane is required vs systemic and longer term considerations is the difference here.

Your doctor can see very tangible and measurable results from eating junk food. Yet many people do it anyways and "run fine". Until they don't. Engine calibrators likewise use very measurable data that they use to baseline maps. Will you see a symptom of low octane, perhaps not. But longer term, over severe duty use that the vehicle was built for, across the hundreds of thousands of examples of vehicles out there in the varied conditions...

Toyota is conservative and leaves engineering margin on the table to assure long term durability against many conditions. To electively give up that margin, and compound it with other things perhaps all happening at the same time is when one will see the results of their choice.
- Heavy load use
- Extreme temperature
- Bad gas
- High mileage engine with deposits created in prior pre-ignition events (from running lower octane fuel)

To which I ask, why wouldn’t they require premium in a cruiser then?

 

[TeCKis300]

To which I ask, why wouldn’t they require premium in a cruiser then?

It's a different calibration.

Everything is controlled by software these days. CA/NV/AZ for the longest time on many vehicles got its own calibration for tighter smog laws. Same models from year to year got different calibrations as manufacturers postured to different gas price pressures. Different nations get different calibrations for the same vehicle.

A Lexus is going to get its own calibration by virtue of it being a Lexus tailored to different owner type. Even independent of if they used same/different octane.

I have several fuel and timing maps that I can flash onto my other cars. Octane and fuel type dependent. 4pts of octane is a huge gap in what it means for timing maps.

Relying on knock sensors to fine tune a vehicle is not what OEMs do. That's bad form, because knock is occuring. Knock sensors are used as a contingency for if there is knock. Not to fine tune vehicles for octane.

 

[bloc]

It's a different calibration.

You keep repeating that as if it's a fact but don't know whether or not it's true.

Everything is controlled by software these days. CA/NV/AZ for the longest time on many vehicles got its own calibration for tighter smog laws. Same models from year to year got different calibrations as manufacturers postured to different gas price pressures. Different nations get different calibrations for the same vehicle.

Irrelevant unless this somehow proves LX is different from LC.

A Lexus is going to get its own calibration by virtue of it being a Lexus tailored to different owner type. Even independent of if they used same/different octane.

100% speculation, not fact. If we were talking different engines or similar engines with different compression ratios you'd have a point, but the basis of this engine is the same across platforms and power figures are only .5% different. When you were tuning cars could you repeatably hit 0.5% margin of error? They MIGHT be different, and you seem to claim you know they are, but where's the proof?

I have several fuel and timing maps that I can flash onto my other cars. Octane and fuel type dependent. 4pts of octane is a huge gap in what it means for timing maps.

Relying on knock sensors to fine tune a vehicle is not what OEMs do. That's bad form, because knock is occuring. Knock sensors are used as a contingency for if there is knock. Not to fine tune vehicles for octane.

How is this pertinent to the discussion? No one is suggesting toyota tunes their vehicles via knock, but as you point out it is widely understood that most modern gasoline ECUs can respond to knock and they generally do that by pulling timing, which reduces power. That is why a before/after dyno comparison of RUG/Premium in a LX and especially compared to the same in a LC would actually bolster your assertion of different calibration.


Look, I'm not trying to be difficult. I've learned SO much on these forums and others over the years, and it has benefitted me greatly in the frankly ridiculous amount of car work I've done, as well as allow me to do what some people would consider stupid things on cars in my garage. ECU adapter harness for incorrect-year DSMLink ECU into an old eclipse. Toyota diesel swap into a 4runner. Replaced all the capacitors in that ECM when they started leaking. Then ditched the auto for a manual. Then swapped it to a mechanical pump. Vortec swap into my 80, including wideband based tuning. Multiple automatic to manual swaps in various cars. LOTS of other uncommon work. I did all of that trusting the info I was reading was factual. I have a particular disdain for speculation presented as fact, and that is why I keep pushing this issue.

LXs are no doubt awesome rigs, especially when you consider what you get compared to the money of a LC. But, if you put premium in it... eventually you haven't saved anything (yes we can go down a rabbit hole of hypothetical saved costs on suspension mods, but as an example my LC is still stock and is likely staying that way).

If it turns out, based on EVIDENCE, the calibration isn't different.. (and the engine being mechanically identical supports this possibility) now they become even cheaper.

So if you are going to keep repeating "different calibrations" as a fact please support it with some evidence. Your beloved AHC will end up impressing even more people.

 

[TeCKis300]

You keep repeating that as if it's a fact but don't know whether or not it's true.



Irrelevant unless this somehow proves LX is different from LC.



100% speculation, not fact. If we were talking different engines or similar engines with different compression ratios you'd have a point, but the basis of this engine is the same across platforms and power figures are only .5% different. When you were tuning cars could you repeatably hit 0.5% margin of error? They MIGHT be different, and you seem to claim you know they are, but where's the proof?



How is this pertinent to the discussion? No one is suggesting toyota tunes their vehicles via knock, but as you point out it is widely understood that most modern gasoline ECUs can respond to knock and they generally do that by pulling timing, which reduces power. That is why a before/after dyno comparison of RUG/Premium in a LX and especially compared to the same in a LC would actually bolster your assertion of different calibration.


Look, I'm not trying to be difficult. I've learned SO much on these forums and others over the years, and it has benefitted me greatly in the frankly ridiculous amount of car work I've done, as well as allow me to do what some people would consider stupid things on cars in my garage. ECU adapter harness for incorrect-year DSMLink ECU into an old eclipse. Toyota diesel swap into a 4runner. Replaced all the capacitors in that ECM when they started leaking. Then ditched the auto for a manual. Then swapped it to a mechanical pump. Vortec swap into my 80, including wideband based tuning. Multiple automatic to manual swaps in various cars. LOTS of other uncommon work. I did all of that trusting the info I was reading was factual. I have a particular disdain for speculation presented as fact, and that is why I keep pushing this issue.

LXs are no doubt awesome rigs, especially when you consider what you get compared to the money of a LC. But, if you put premium in it... eventually you haven't saved anything (yes we can go down a rabbit hole of hypothetical saved costs on suspension mods, but as an example my LC is still stock and is likely staying that way).

If it turns out, based on EVIDENCE, the calibration isn't different.. (and the engine being mechanically identical supports this possibility) now they become even cheaper.

So if you are going to keep repeating "different calibrations" as a fact please support it with some evidence. Your beloved AHC will end up impressing even more people.

I respect your need to question and want for evidence. Yet I can't teach you what you don't know in terms of specialized domain knowledge, engine control strategies, and best practices. I suspect you'd still question as no one has cracked specifically the LC/LX ECUs with actual maps to show.

Short of that. I've done many of the same things you have with hardware including engine swaps, fabrication, trannies - hardware. My specialty is also software, including tuning vehicles for aftermarket hardware either with flash tuning, piggybacks, or standalones. For naturally aspirated and forced induction. I happen to be running a program in my professional work right now that is developing a revised calibration for an aircraft engine.

So I be making some assumption in your eyes. If you look at if from my perspective working with these things... It would be your conjecture that is creating serious false assumptions by telling others it's okay to run lower octane than what a vehicle is calibrated for. A fact that is firmly stated in the manual.

 

[bloc]

You might design aircraft engines and their control systems, but it wouldn't give you any specific knowledge about whether Lexus LX570 calibration is different from 200-series Landcruiser.

How does HPTuners get around said encryption? They specifically list 07-15 landcruiser 3UR-FE on this page, though curiously don't list lexus at all: Supported Vehicles List – HPTuners

So I be making some assumption in your eyes. If you look at if from my perspective working with these things... It would be your conjecture that is creating serious false assumptions by telling others it's okay to run lower octane than what a vehicle is calibrated for. A fact that is firmly stated in the manual.

Are you actually reading this? I never said it was okay, in fact I specifically bolded "possibility".

 

[Itsky]

@bloc I don’t have a dog in this fight, but your argument seems ridiculous.

There is a different recommendation from the manufacturer. You’re the one assuming there is no reason for it.

 

[bloc]

@bloc I don’t have a dog in this fight, but your argument seems ridiculous.

There is a different recommendation from the manufacturer. You’re the one assuming there is no reason for it.

I never assumed that. I simply want evidence for the "different calibration" statement (as fact) when the evidence we do have doesn't seem to support that.

 

[Itsky]

Let’s try deduction:

hardware = a
Software/calibration = b
manuf recommendation = c

B is the unknown. Is there something I’m missing?

 

[Markuson]

For me, i am jealous of LX with TWO things:

1. Mark Levinson Reference audio system. My JBL is good...but the ML Reference is in a league of its own.

2. REAL f***king wood trim.

Re fake wood annoyances...
-The worst offender in the fake wood dept—in my opinion—has always been the top of the steering wheel. Ugh. Why??

Thats why sewing on this leather was the best three hours I ever spent for basic driving experience, along with getting rid of the hideous fake wood steering wheel...
-Highly recommended!

 

[Markuson]

I never assumed that. I simply want evidence for the "different calibration" statement (as fact) when the evidence we do have doesn't seem to support that.

/\ This /\

If someone has actually proven how it’s a **winning proposition** to justify spending 30 cents more per gallon so the LXs 5.7 enjoys some big gain in engine longevity or performance...I’ve yet to see it ever actually demonstrated.

Theory is great.
I like theories too.
But at some point...many end up just being VERY EXPENSIVE theories until they are proven...and in this case...proven a worthwhile cost add.

So....
Until this elusive evidence manifests...
...I’ll keep **saving** up to **$14.40** every time I fill my tanks (48 gallons) by not shelling out for 91 or 93.

 

[Phalen302]

/\ This /\

If someone has actually proven how it’s a **winning proposition** to justify spending 30 cents more per gallon so the LXs 5.7 enjoys some big gain in engine longevity or performance...I’ve yet to see it ever actually demonstrated.

Theory is great.
I like theories too.
But at some point...many end up just being VERY EXPENSIVE theories until they are proven...and in this case...proven a worthwhile cost add.

So....
Until this elusive evidence manifests...
...I’ll keep **saving** up to **$14.40** every time I fill my tanks (48 gallons) by not shelling out for 91 or 93.

Right on. I saved a bunch of money by using reg on my LX for last 85k. Used it all up on beer

 

[Madtiger]

I never assumed that. I simply want evidence for the "different calibration" statement (as fact) when the evidence we do have doesn't seem to support that.

two evidence of different calibration:

1. Requirement for premium gas as per owner’s manual.

2. Different HP and torque figures between LX and LC.

 

[Itsky]

/\ This /\

If someone has actually proven how it’s a **winning proposition** to justify spending 30 cents more per gallon so the LXs 5.7 enjoys some big gain in engine longevity or performance...I’ve yet to see it ever actually demonstrated.

Theory is great.
I like theories too.
But at some point...many end up just being VERY EXPENSIVE theories until they are proven...and in this case...proven a worthwhile cost add.

So....
Until this elusive evidence manifests...
...I’ll keep **saving** up to **$14.40** every time I fill my tanks (48 gallons) by not shelling out for 91 or 93.

google term “Lexus octane”

first re:

Which fuel grade should I use for my Lexus vehicle?

antonym of elusive.

 

[bloc]

Let’s try deduction:

hardware = a
Software/calibration = b
manuf recommendation = c

B is the unknown. Is there something I’m missing?

Apparently, members here claiming without evidence that it is different.

two evidence of different calibration:

1. Requirement for premium gas as per owner’s manual.

2. Different HP and torque figures between LX and LC.

1. Could be factors other than calibration, like corporate strategy

2. Find me a dyno that is accurate to within .5%. (Hint: it doesn’t exist). A 2hp difference out of ~380 proves nothing. That could easily be explained away by the fact that they are different platforms and must be tested separately, despite possibly the exact same tuning. If it were a 15hp difference your argument holds some water.

 

[Madtiger]

Apparently, members here claiming without evidence that it is different without evidence, after all these years.



1. Could be factors other than calibration, like corporate strategy

2. Find me a dyno that is accurate to within .5%. That could easily be explained by the fact that they are different platforms and had to be tested separately, despite possibly the exact same tuning. If it were a 15hp difference your argument holds some water.

Corporate strategy? Then, why are there Lexus vehicles that run regular?

So, you’re saying that Lexus posted those different specs because of typical Dyno error? So, you’re saying that Lexus engineers don’t know about dyno variability?

Alrighty then....

 

[JohnJB]

Find me a dyno that is accurate to within .5%. (Hint: it doesn’t exist). A 2hp difference out of ~380 proves nothing. That could easily be explained away by the fact that they are different platforms and must be tested separately, despite possibly the exact same tuning. If it were a 15hp difference your argument holds some water.

If you wanna go full Epstein: "automakers are allowed to claim an SAE certified horsepower number within 1 percent of the measured result—this might allow an automaker whose result was 499 horsepower to claim 500, for example."

 

[bloc]

If you wanna go full Epstein: "automakers are allowed to claim an SAE certified horsepower number within 1 percent of the measured result—this might allow an automaker whose result was 499 horsepower to claim 500, for example."

Pretty convenient if you want to convince buyers a vehicle with the exact same engine is somehow better.

 

[bloc]

Corporate strategy? Then, why are there Lexus vehicles that run regular?

So, you’re saying that Lexus posted those different specs because of typical Dyno error? So, you’re saying that Lexus engineers don’t know about dyno variability?

Alrighty then....

Since the 200 came out the only ones that use regular are hybrids with the explicit goal of saving on fuel costs.

JohnJB pretty well solved the hp/tq figures mystery.

Next?

 

[Madtiger]

Since the 200 came out the only ones that use regular are hybrids with the explicit goal of saving on fuel costs.

JohnJB pretty well solved the hp/tq figures mystery.

Next?

? Lexus RX and ES use regular. Why didn't Lexus make RX/ES use Premium to differentiate it from Highlander/Camry?

Interestingly, RX HYBRiD (and LS Hybrid) uses PREMIUM gas. But yet, NX hybrid and ES Hybrid use REGULAR.

So, there is no pattern with Lexus requirements on gas that you can just clump together (like what you did above). It sure seems like EACH vehicle line is tuned to a specific goal set by Lexus engineers.