Driveshaft movement excessive? *updated & confirmed*.

[petegangies]

Hi all, my mechanic feels like this movement is a bit excessive? Thoughts?

Also I'm sometimes getting a thud/clunk sometimes when changing gears or backing off while changing gears. Mostly 1st to 2nd but not always. Auto box.

Not sure if related but slight wine on light throttle, more noticeable from 80k/h or above.

All ball joints, uni joints and slips look fine to him with no excessive movement. CVs are silent. Steering wheel has a wobble above 80km/h.. have had wheels balanced twice and new tyres. No difference. Wheel bearings are fine too

He thinks maybe diff related?

Car only has 155,000kms. Diff oils changed pretty religiously. I did them last weekend. Magnets looked pretty good. He said seems front related not rear.

Appreciate any insights..p.s vehicle is in park in this clip.

 

[Kernal]

Hard to tell but the amount of movement appears about normal for this model.

Which type differentials does your FZJ80R have (Australian Petrol model ?? FZJ80R-GNPEKQ or FZJ80R-GNPNKQ):
K292 (Open F/R)
K293 (Limited Slip Rear, Open Front)
K294 (Locked F/R)?

Which type/viscosity of gear oil are you using?

IMHO I would lube the U-joints with your local/favorite multipurpose grease until grease comes out of each end cap.

Then lube the slip yolk(s) with a NLGI#2, 3-5% Moly Fortified grease until the shaft just starts to extend, and drive it.

If those are the original kilometers (~100k miles) nothing should be worn out unless it's been severely abused/neglected IME.

 

[petegangies]

Hard to tell but the amount of movement appears about normal for this model.

Which type differentials does your FZJ80R have (Australian Petrol model ?? FZJ80R-GNPEKQ or FZJ80R-GNPNKQ):
K292 (Open F/R)
K293 (Limited Slip Rear, Open Front)
K294 (Locked F/R)?

Which type/viscosity of gear oil are you using?

IMHO I would lube the U-joints with your local/favorite multipurpose grease until grease comes out of each end cap.

Then lube the slip yolk(s) with a NLGI#2, 3-5% Moly Fortified grease until the shaft just starts to extend, and drive it.

If those are the original kilometers (~100k miles) nothing should be worn out unless it's been severely abused/neglected IME.

FZJ80R-GNPNKQ

no idea on diff. Greased all the slips and unis.. didnt sort it unfortunately. 80w90 mineral oil by memory.

 

[petegangies]

Just a quick update on the ongoing driveline noise/play issue.

I took the Cruiser to a differential specialist today. His opinion was that the play is more likely coming from the axle ends/CVs rather than the differential centre itself. So where those axle ends/drive flanges sit on the cv splines (I hope I have that right?).

He also saw the swivel hub leak, which has unfortunately returned on the driver's side despite the axle seal being repaired twice. His view was that the seal surface/housing may be scored or damaged by the previous place who did the replacement, which could explain why it continues to leak. He felt the axle ends/flanges should have been inspected/replaced while the swivel hub work was being carried out. He recommends replacing both the cv's and flanges when doing the swivel hubs again.

As for the light-throttle whine/harmonic noise at highway speeds, he said it's difficult to pinpoint without further diagnosis. It could potentially be coming from the front diff, rear diff, transfer case, transmission or elsewhere in the driveline. Likewise, the slight steering wheel wobble at 80 km/h+ could be tyre, wheel, driveline or suspension related. His recommendation was to start with simple elimination tests such as rotating the tyres front-to-rear and continue narrowing it down from there. It's continued to wobble with 2 different sets of tyres and 2 separate wheel balances. As a side note, I do not have a steering stabiliser on the car atm, but that shouldn't be a reason for the wheel to wobble.

For reference, I also recently changed the diff oils and the drain plugs only had the usual fine magnetic paste on them. No chunks, flakes or anything that suggested catastrophic internal damage. The diff specialist, also didn't infer there may be a big issue with the diff, but did mention something about the pinion bearing possibly having some play.

At this stage, it sounds like the focus should be on the front axle/CV/swivel hub area rather than the diff centre itself. Has anyone had similar rotational play and driveline clunks traced back to worn axle ends, drive flanges or CVs rather than the diff?

Interested to hear others' experiences, and any advice on what I've already shared/posted. Not much engagement on this post thus far..

Thanks,
Pete

 

[mudgudgeon]

Sounds like the diff guy is an honest operator.

The play in the driveline and the thunk/clunk on acceleration/deceleration is classic symptom of worn front hub drive flange & CV axle splines. ( CVs are referred to as birfs on mud)
Replace them with post '94 model parts. Toyota made a change so they have 10mm longer splines, more metal engagement, less wear and tear.

Use reputable Japanese made aftermarket parts. Terrain Tamer parts are a good option. Purchase through Don Kyatt Spares at Seven Hills
There's loads of cheap Chinese junk available, skip that. But once, cry once. Terrain Tamer will be a lot cheaper than Toyota

It's hard to get s good gauge on condition of uni joints without removing driveshafts from the truck. They should rotate freely and smoothly through full range of motion. If they don't replace them with Genuine Toyota parts, or Matsuba parts. This is one thing thing that staying OEM is worth the expense.
Greasing bad uni joints may give you a temporary improvement in symptoms, but it's a bandaid.

Also, if you grease slip joints to the point that they extend, you've put too much grease in. A few pumps every time you change the oil is good practice

 

[petegangies]

Sounds like the diff guy is an honest operator.

The play in the driveline and the thunk/clunk on acceleration/deceleration is classic symptom of worn front hub drive flange & CV axle splines. ( CVs are referred to as birfs on mud)
Replace them with post '94 model parts. Toyota made a change so they have 10mm longer splines, more metal engagement, less wear and tear.

Use reputable Japanese made aftermarket parts. Terrain Tamer parts are a good option. Purchase through Don Kyatt Spares at Seven Hills
There's loads of cheap Chinese junk available, skip that. But once, cry once. Terrain Tamer will be a lot cheaper than Toyota

It's hard to get s good gauge on condition of uni joints without removing driveshafts from the truck. They should rotate freely and smoothly through full range of motion. If they don't replace them with Genuine Toyota parts, or Matsuba parts. This is one thing thing that staying OEM is worth the expense.
Greasing bad uni joints may give you a temporary improvement in symptoms, but it's a bandaid.

Also, if you grease slip joints to the point that they extend, you've put too much grease in. A few pumps every time you change the oil is good practice

well, I mentioned that to my mechanic about the slip joints, and I'm pretty sure he just pumped them full till he could see the seal weep, so almost guaranteed to be over greased now. p.s Toyo do japanese made unijoints as well.. see here.

Thank you re: the hub drive flange and birfs.

The one thing I'm most concerned about is the whine I have on light throttle.. hard to not think it's diff related.

 

[Kernal]

"The one thing I'm most concerned about is the whine I have on light throttle.. hard to not think it's diff related."


What gear oil are you using (brand, type, viscosity)?

What type differentials in your 80, stock or?

Have you tried a different gear oil (viscosity/type)?

IME one simple way to help narrow down where a gear box noise is coming from is to switch to a different gear oil ie: different viscosity/brand/type
with/without a Moly additive ie: I run either Mobil 1 or Mobil Delvac Synthetic gear oil in my 80's and usually add LiquiMoly MOS2 (Molybdenum Disulfide) gear oil additive.

Between a different/higher viscosity and the additive, if the noise/whine changes you have your answer. Change the gear oil in one gear box at a time
ie: change front diff gear oil, drive it --- change rear diff gear oil, drive it, --- transfer case, ----.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Toyo do japanese made unijoints as well.. see here.

That's about what you'd pay at Toyota from memory. +/- inflation

They look like they might be ok.
the thing with Matsuba or toyota uni joints is the o-ring seal for each cup is captured within the cup, not just a push fit on the outer diameter line cheap aftermarket.
The o-ring being locked in is what let's you pump fresh grease through the whole joint.
Aftermarket uni's, the grease just blows seals off and bypasses the guts of the joint

 

[mudgudgeon]

A little bit of a whine is kinda normal in a 30 year old vehicle with normal mileage.

On light throttle, it could just be gear noise from the transfer case.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Matsuba uni for reference.
Seal is tucked in behind a metal ring

 

[petegangies]

"The one thing I'm most concerned about is the whine I have on light throttle.. hard to not think it's diff related."


What gear oil are you using (brand, type, viscosity)?

What type differentials in your 80, stock or?

Have you tried a different gear oil (viscosity/type)?

IME one simple way to help narrow down where a gear box noise is coming from is to switch to a different gear oil ie: different viscosity/brand/type
with/without a Moly additive ie: I run either Mobil 1 or Mobil Delvac Synthetic gear oil in my 80's and usually add LiquiMoly MOS2 (Molybdenum Disulfide) gear oil additive.

Between a different/higher viscosity and the additive, if the noise/whine changes you have your answer. Change the gear oil in one gear box at a time
ie: change front diff gear oil, drive it --- change rear diff gear oil, drive it, --- transfer case, ----.

I'm running Penrite (Aussie brand) 80w90 mineral oil: GEAR OIL 80W-90 (Mineral) | Penrite Oil - https://penriteoil.com.au/products/gear-oil-80w-90-mineral

Stock diffs in my vehicle. The vehicle as a whole is virtually stock standard, apart from the fact it's got dual fuel LPG.

A little bit of a whine is kinda normal in a 30 year old vehicle with normal mileage.

On light throttle, it could just be gear noise from the transfer case.

only 155,000kms? maybe it was always there and I didn't hear it until I got rid of the noisy mud terrains, but I don't think so.. I'm pretty in tune with noises.

That's about what you'd pay at Toyota from memory. +/- inflation

They look like they might be ok.
the thing with Matsuba or toyota uni joints is the o-ring seal for each cup is captured within the cup, not just a push fit on the outer diameter line cheap aftermarket.
The o-ring being locked in is what let's you pump fresh grease through the whole joint.
Aftermarket uni's, the grease just blows seals off and bypasses the guts of the joint

I can just get the genuine Toyota's from overseas or terrain tamers.

 

[petegangies]

what if I disconnect the front tailshaft completely and drive in 2WD on rear only, to see if the whine disappears?

P.s worth trying just replacing the hub drive flanges before resorting to new birfs? Since the metal is softer, my brain tells me this is where most of the wear is going to occur. If my vehicle considerably more mileage on it, I'd just do the birfs at the same time, but I've spent 12k on this car in the last 2 years, so trying to kerb some spending haha.

 

[mudgudgeon]

what if I disconnect the front tailshaft completely and drive in 2WD on rear only, to see if the whine disappears?

This can help pinpoint a noise, but isn't always cut and dried.

You can also take out the rear driveshaft, lock the CDL and drive it in front wheel drive to try to pinpoint issues.

 

[petegangies]

This can help pinpoint a noise, but isn't always cut and dried.

You can also take out the rear driveshaft, lock the CDL and drive it in front wheel drive to try to pinpoint issues.

perfect, might just help narrow things down a bit! I can inspect the unis while they're off

 

[petegangies]

@mudgudgeon @Kernal

reply from Basco, who supply Toyo branded UJs here in Australia...

Good morning, Pete,

I've checked the stock that we have, in particular the RUJ-2109-TOYO.
These have a seal pressed into cap to keep the grease in, rather than just an O-ring.
I have attached photos for reference.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

I've found new drive flanges definitely reduce backlash, but new birfs improves it further - new splines with new splines.

If you replace both inner axles as well, you eliminate any grooves in the oil seal surface of the inner axle.

The TT birfs are not actually terribly priced last time I checked.

 

[petegangies]

I've found new drive flanges definitely reduce backlash, but new birfs improves it further - new splines with new splines.

If you replace both inner axles as well, you eliminate any grooves in the oil seal surface of the inner axle.

The TT birfs are not actually terribly priced last time I checked.

Thanks for the input! The specialist guy I took it to a couple of days ago said the same thing.. ideally you would do birfs and flanges together, but will assess once they've had a look, car has bled me dry (up to 13k in the last 3 years), so I'm trying to kerb spending a little. If after the mechanic strips it down, he turns around and say there's grooves on the axles and the birfs are worn, I'll bite the bullet and do them for sure.

 

[landtank]

I’ve had issues with Matsuba u- joints. Contacted them through my supplier and their response was that they recognized the issue but felt the joints would still work fine.

I mean, I found the issue because I was having a problem! Switched to Toyo and they have been great.

 

[mudgudgeon]

ideally you would do birfs and flanges together

100%
Changing only one or the other will give less than optimal result, and wear will be accelerated in the old part

 

[petegangies]

100%
Changing only one or the other will give less than optimal result, and wear will be accelerated in the old part

I thought the flanges were designed to be somewhat a sacrificial part and a softer steel, therefore you'd expect the majority of wear there..but obviously both will wear and the only way to have a perfect result is to replace them together... but maybe 90% is good enough....I know, I know.. the poor man pays twice.