Check out my Front Axle

[snowwolf]

If and when you decide to do the birf job, it might pay to renew the 4 bottom knuckle studs for the new type, it sure is a good safe thing to do, I had three out of the four break, and if the last one had gone, so would have my steering! dread to think what might have happened on the freeway at 80mph

 

[cruiserdan]

I wouldn't flame you but, if you have gone to the trouble of taking it all apart, not replacing the knuckle bearings would be foolish. I think you are offering bad advice. That isn't a flame, just an opinion. By 60k miles, they are ALL worn to one degree or another-most noticable at the straight ahead position. Many go beyond that, which you get away with, mostly. Those bearings only cost (CD correct me plz) $15 each, and are the smallest part of this messy job.

Currently $17.68 a copy and they support ALL the weight of the front half of the vehicle, north of 3,000 lbs in the case of a trail-prepared rig.

Don't kid yourself into thinking you don't need them because you are not "hard" on your vehicle. I pulled my front axle down at 90K, knowing the entire service and usage history, having owned it since new. There was no way those bearings were going to be bad.........BOTH lowers were trashed.....;p

 

[tarbe]

Please don't try to re-use seals. False economy in my book.

If you get caught without one in the midst of a trail repair, that is one thing. But if you are planning your maintenance like most of us do, plan to replace your seals.

 

[Tools R Us]

If you want to save a couple of bucks, Kurt has the front axle knuckle rebuild kits
including Koyo trunnion bearings on sale for $111.

http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/lockers.html

 

[wileetoyote]

Currently $17.68 a copy and they support ALL the weight of the front half of the vehicle, north of 3,000 lbs in the case of a trail-prepared rig.

Don't kid yourself into thinking you don't need them because you are not "hard" on your vehicle. I pulled my front axle down at 90K, knowing the entire service and usage history, having owned it since new. There was no way those bearings were going to be bad.........BOTH lowers were trashed.....;p

I'm not disagreeing with your experiences and even though the complete maintenance history may be known, the conditions leading up to a certain point is dependant on how you use the vehicle (i assume you wheel and judging by some pics, quite hard I may add). So your 90K may have been a heck of a lot harder on those bearing if you've taken it wheeling even just once whereas a mall cruiser may have absolutely nothing wrong. I've replaced front bearings time and time again between 60-90k "just because I've opened it all up" to inspect and replace the grease and by the time you add up all the bearings, seals, grease, and some new tool I've convinced my wife I needed to do the job , I've dropped $200-$300 on parts (new tool not included) so your $17.68 is tad misleading when going on the premise that since its opend up, you may as well rebuild it. Add that up every 60K miles... now quadrouple that for folks who HAVE to pay for a dealership or mechanic because they can't, won't, or are scared to.

I think you are offering bad advice.

I don't think its bad advise... can you imagine how many people who don't wrench are told to have this done take it to a shop, and walk away after getting the sticker shock...they typically say " F-that... for $1,200 I'll just sell it when it reaches 150k and let them deal with it!"

I think people should be able to take it in, have it torn down, inspected, and repacked for a fraction of the cost and ONLY replaced them on as needed basis and their vehicles and wallets are better off because of it....but they don't because they know (especially females), that 9 out of ten times they'll get jacked!

I know, because when I first started driving ALL my money went to mechanics for the stupidest $hit until I finally took things (tools to be exact) into my own hands. If I do have to have someone do something, its only dealerships, everyone else is banned. I really haven't let anyone touch my vehicles (mechanically or erotically (save for myself)) for the last ~18 yrs except for 1 or 2 occasions and even then it was because of one circumstance or another. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me thrice, shame on me...


I'm not trying to start an argument and I appreciate your opinions, but for those not mechanically inclined, doing what most folks on this board "mechanically recommend" is not the say all end all. Just my opinion (and yes, I had a crappy day and am in a bad mood)

WET

 

[Rookie2]

Good post Wile-T, and your point is reasonable and logical IMO. But at the same rate often times individuals are over intemidated by getting into mechanical stuff and need a little "push" and some reassurance. The whole "mechnically inclined" phrasology can be enough for some folks to dismiss themselves as underqualified. Most of this stuff is not rocket scientry, and takes only a few of things... the willingness to take a little time to do the research, time to do the job and not mind getting a little dirty. I'd say quite a few guys on this site have evolved from weekend oil change guys, to relatively competent 2 or 3 banana mechanics from the insite and encouragement given on this site. The warning signs for the tougher jobs are usually posted. This one's a big job but doable for most, not a absolute necessity at 80k, but not a bad idea.


Rookie2

 

[semlin]

wile e

150k is taking a chance. my birf grenaded at 120k a couple of weeks after i bought it from street driving. it ran dry. how much of a chance i don't know. i know nob0ody else who has had a birf blow up on the street

 

[Biff]

You want some slave labor? I'd love to learn.

Brent, its not that hard to do. If you ever do yours I would help you, just let me know the time and place.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

I think people should be able to take it in, have it torn down, inspected, and repacked for a fraction of the cost and ONLY replaced them on as needed basis and their vehicles and wallets are better off because of it....but they don't because they know (especially females), that 9 out of ten times they'll get jacked!


WET

Sorry it was a bad day, but either you missed the point or are talking something else alltogether. The cost of this repair is in the labor. Even retail, the cost of all the parts is $300. The remaining $900 is labor. So once it is apart, the costly part is done. Replacing all 4 of these bearings is $60 or so. That isn't much out of a $1200 job. If they completely fail soon after the job is done, you are going to spend the $1200 labor price again to have the job done right. I do not see your point, and still think the advice you may be giving to unknowing newbies is wrong. Do things right and do them once. To tear a knuckle down with over 60k and not replace the bearings and seals would be criminal unless it belongs to you. Then do what you want. To do what you advise, reminds me of the old saying "penny wise and pound foolish".

I certainly agree that women often get jacked around by unethical service advisors who prey on the "fear of breakdown" factor.

In this case-it's pretty straight forward. The original poster looks like his axle seal is going bad on the driver's side. He likely has 10k-20k before it becomes a huge problem. My original point is that he needs to bite this bullet at some point. The Cruiseroutfitters price for parts is outstanding. For $120 and a chunk of his time, 450 Cruiser is back on the road with a front axle service that will serve him well for years. For a bit more $ he can even get all OEM parts from Cruiserdan.

 

[Brentbba]

Brent, its not that hard to do. If you ever do yours I would help you, just let me know the time and place.

Thanks Biff - I know the offer is on the table and probably should do before the next big trip - that gives me all summer.

 

[tim_teasly]

Boston --- PM when you are going to do this and I will bring the and learn a thing or two.

 

[Brentbba]

Boston --- PM when you are going to do this and I will bring the and learn a thing or two.

Damn Kevin - that's two of us that have offered up some help.

 

[cruiserdan]

I'm not disagreeing with your experiences and even though the complete maintenance history may be known, the conditions leading up to a certain point is dependant on how you use the vehicle (i assume you wheel and judging by some pics, quite hard I may add). So your 90K may have been a heck of a lot harder on those bearing if you've taken it wheeling even just once whereas a mall cruiser may have absolutely nothing wrong.

This could be a valid observation and would be if that was the whole story. My vehicle saw pretty much "normal usage up to that point. I will complete the tale.....

I do indeed wheel hard when I can and it is not very often . Believe it or not my 90k was a fairly mild 90k. I tore the axle down to fit a locker so that I could go out and wheel hard. I did not that agressive until I completed that conversion and all the "poser shots" :hillbilly you have seen are post axle job.



So, I still stand by my recommendation to replace the trunion bearings, especialy the lower ones, when the axle is apart.

D-

 

[MH_Stevens]

Nobody told you to check the oil in the axle to see if it is contaminated with grease. If it is the the inner seals are gone and the job needs be done anyway. I did mine (Got the complete set of bearings and seals from Dan) and there were no difficulties as long as you have the courage to whack that birf with a 4lb mallet (using a brass bar of course) and have the FSM.

 

[tarbe]

Nobody told you to check the oil in the axle to see if it is contaminated with grease.

Posted by Rookie2 in Post #14:

Also pull the plug on the front diff and drain a couple of teaspoons of gear oil and see what it looks like. That should help give an idea of how quickly you need to proceed to R&R.

Just giving credit where credit is due....

 

[450 Cruiser]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. My plan now is to remove the excess grease schmung (technical term ) from the area and monitor for the next 1K or so and check the diff fluid as recommended. I'm worried about the passenger side (reddish color) as it appears to be more oily in consistency, but neither side is weeping anything of a watery or oily consistency. I am not at all intimidated by this job. It would be nice to have an FSM, "The DVD", and watch someone else before starting. And, of course, talk to CDan about the necsessary parts.

One question, when I check the diff fluid, what are the characteristics I should be looking for? Good vs. bad.

 

[wileetoyote]

wile e

150k is taking a chance. my birf grenaded at 120k a couple of weeks after i bought it from street driving. it ran dry. how much of a chance i don't know. i know nob0ody else who has had a birf blow up on the street

My point was if folks could bring their rigs in every 60k for a cleaning, inspection, and repack for a reasonable price without fear, then maybe more people would do it and that the mall cruisers may turn out just fine and the occasional wheeler may need a rebuild at that point but as cruiserdrew pointed out, I guess it was just wishful thinking since it cost $900 in labor alone. I guess thats why I do my own birf jobs.

Even retail, the cost of all the parts is $300. The remaining $900 is labor. So once it is apart, the costly part is done.

I guess I take these things for granted becuase I do wheel hard and usually tear my front axle down every 30k or so since I too have trashed my birf's lower knuckle bearings while out on the trail (on my 4Rnr in this case).
The reason for this was becuase I had ALL the trucks weight on the front left tire. The other 3 tires where precariously up in the air somewhere. I got lucky and just annialated my knuckle bearing. My buddy ended up rolling his Bronco II over in the same spot.

So I guess the moral here is to learn to do it yourself for $300 or pay $1200 EVERY 60K miles or so unless if you wheel it hard...then you'll be tearing them down about every 30K like I do (but then again, I usually just repack them with grease at that point unless I find a problem)

Great discussion and lots of insight

WET

 

[wileetoyote]

I'm worried about the passenger side (reddish color) as it appears to be more oily in consistency, but neither side is weeping anything of a watery or oily consistency.

450 C,

I'll get off my soapbox (for now ) and get back to your dilema. The buildup of smudge on the outside should not be oily unless it happens to be fresh grease that just weeped out from the birf seal. Looking at your pic, it doesn't look wet and runny so one thing I'd look into about the reddish color is the chance that the PO packed the hub with aftermarket 'red' grease. Both of mine looks like yours becuase I used Penzoil wheel bearing grease which is red so it may or may not be ok. There is a square headed plug at the top of cast iron casing that holds the birfs. I'd open that up and stick a straw in it to see what type of grease is in there. If its the normal grey stuff mixed with diff oil, then a rebuild is order sooner than later. If you pull out a chunk of aftermarket red grease, then your probably okay until you've had some beer with the others and watch them do the rebuild.


Now, back to my soapbox... ;p

so unless if you wheel it hard...then you'll be tearing them down about every 30K like I do (but then again, I usually just repack them with grease at that point unless I find a problem)
WET

Seeing that I just realized I somewhat contradicted myself from my first reply about going 150k, let me explain...

- I do think you should tear the front axle down at least every 60K miles. Since having a paid mechanic do this is cost prohibitive, learn to do this yourself (I thinks its 1 job)
- I still think for the most part, wheel bearings and seals should last well beyond 60k so whether folks choose to repack or replace them based on their condition is up to them. Knuckle bearings seem to be a bone of contention here so I'll stay away from that subject.
- I personally have two rigs (4Rnr/FJ80) that have birfs, one that I wheel hard (4Rnr) and one that i don't (FJ80). Seeing that I dig into my birfs more often than the average person, I choose to repack vs replace and may have gone between 120k-150k before I saw signs that have caused me to do a complete rebuild, even if only one bearing was bad, because of the metal shavings, I've had to replace all.
- I did a recent rebuild of my front axle on my 4Rnr and in less than 10k miles, exploded my knuckle bearing while wheeling (described in my previous reply) causing me to rebuild that side of the axle all over again (actually did it twice...once to field repair the knuckle bearing only, buttoned it back up to get me home and then once in my garage, bought all new bearings and did it again. not fun.

Going back to your case, the prudent thing to do is open it up when your ready and since it sounds like your doing this on your own, do the complete rebuild. Then you'll know from that point forward when it was done, how you've driven it over the next 60k miles and when you open it back up, it'll be up to you to choose what to do at that point. Once again, since you'll be doing it all yourself, If you choose to rebuild it each time, $300 in parts seems reasonable.

My point again was for those who choose not to do it themselves...will they be willing to pay $1200 every 60k miles to rebuild as everyone is suggesting?
I guess we'll never know...

WET

 

[Rookie2]

One question, when I check the diff fluid, what are the characteristics I should be looking for? Good vs. bad.

When I drained mine front diff after the axle seal had failed, the color was a dark grayish black and the consistancy was a little thicker than a normal gear oil. The smell was kind of pungent for some reason too... but then again normal used gear oil kind of stinks anyways.

One other thing, I'm not aware of a red grease out there that is moly fortified. IIRC, Mobil synthetic is red but not moly fortified, and Valvoline has a lithium base red grease that is not moly fortified.

 

[semlin]

redline synthetic is red and moly fortified.