80 steering issues, wont track straight

[Shoredreamer]

I believe all 80 Series came from the factory with 0 offset wheels. Myself and many I know run -38 offset (or 1.5” wheel spacers) on 37s. I’m on 4” lift with Delta 4 arms and OEM bushings and I have the same +4 caster as you.

I’d imagine you’d have much more positive caster with Delta 5L arms + 2.5 caster bushings set to add additional positive caster.
Who installed your offset caster bushings? Did they clock them to add caster or reduce caster?

 

[roaminglost]

I believe all 80 Series came from the factory with 0 offset wheels. Myself and many I know run -38 offset (or 1.5” wheel spacers) on 37s. I’m on 4” lift with Delta 4 arms and OEM bushings and I have the same +4 caster as you.

I’d imagine you’d have much more positive caster with Delta 5L arms + 2.5 caster bushings set to add additional positive caster.
Who installed your offset caster bushings? Did they clock them to add caster or reduce caster?

I had a shop install them. I believe I was at 0 offset with stock? I don’t remember.

 

[roaminglost]

Solenoid update, plus a find worth writing down.

@ikarus , ran your test. Unplugged the solenoid and drove it. Steering got much heavier at low speed, close to no power steering at all, which matches what you described. Took it out on the road and the effort stayed heavy but the character didn't change. Same stickiness, same sawing. So the valve isn't what's creating the problem, all unplugging does is remove assist.

Here's the interesting part. On top of the solenoid there's a post and nut that adjusts, same idea as the box adjuster. Mine was cranked all the way in. I backed it out a little and the steering loosened up a lot and now feels like normal power steering. Spring is intact, so the unit is complete, somebody had just run that adjuster all the way to the stop. Given the spring was missing when I bought the truck, I'd guess the same person was in there.

Anyone know what that adjuster is actually supposed to be set to? All the way in is clearly wrong but "a bit out" is my guess, not a spec. I'll ask Redhead too.

So counting it up, I've now removed two friction sources. The stabilizer and this adjuster. Both made the truck feel less like it's fighting me. Neither changed the crown-follow or the failure to self-center.

Which lines up with what I'm starting to think is going on. Friction was making it feel sticky. Something else is making it follow the road. My money is on two things:

Scrub radius. My wheels are 17x9 at -38, roughly 3.0" backspacing against a stock 4.5. A crowned road puts constant lateral force through the tire, and at that offset the force acts through a much longer lever than Toyota designed for. That's leverage, not friction, so it wouldn't change no matter how free the steering chain is. Which is exactly what I'm seeing.

Bump steer. Explains the speed bump shake and the sawing over uneven pavement.

Measuring bump steer this weekend. Jack a corner 2-3", watch toe change, both sides. Will post numbers.

 

[roaminglost]

Front and rear photos attached.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Try increasing the toe in angle. 0.17⁰ toe seems so close to zero it's almost inmeasurable. That could be accounted for in the tech attaching equipment to the wheels.
Any amount of play in any part of the steering is going to negate this a
tiny toe angle.

Measure your toe in
Factory spec is something like 6mm total. I don't think the FSM gives a toe angle.

With 35" mud tires (even 33" ATs), I found doubling this to 6mm each side stopped my 2" lifted trucks wandering and following the road so much.

There's loads of threads in how to measure and set your toe angle

On a RHD HDJ81 you can check it with a Mason's string line in minutes.

Caster shouldn't be an issue.
I did a cut & turn on my first 80 that had a 4" lift, abs set it to 4⁰ caster. It tracked great, but steering did feel slightly heavier. Cut & turn comes with is own set of problems. I think there's better options.

 

[mudgudgeon]

then rebuilt the knuckles and got 12 lbs with no shims

Pretty sure with the 80 series knuckles, you shouldn't need to mess with the shims. Just put them back the same as they were from the factory

 

[ChaseTruck]

Try increasing the toe in angle. 0.17⁰ toe seems so close to zero it's almost inmeasurable. That could be accounted for in the tech attaching equipment to the wheels.
Any amount of play in any part of the steering is going to negate this a
tiny toe angle.

Measure your toe in
Factory spec is something like 6mm total. I don't think the FSM gives a toe angle.

With 35" mud tires (even 33" ATs), I found doubling this to 6mm each side stopped my 2" lifted trucks wandering and following the road so much.

There's loads of threads in how to measure and set your toe angle

On a RHD HDJ81 you can check it with a Mason's string line in minutes.

Caster shouldn't be an issue.
I did a cut & turn on my first 80 that had a 4" lift, abs set it to 4⁰ caster. It tracked great, but steering did feel slightly heavier. Cut & turn comes with is own set of problems. I think there's better options.

I was going to post that I perceived a lack of toe-in with those 37s but then considered this to be too much Chevy straight axle thinking. Anyways, I’d start turning the tie rod…

 

[peacesells63]

Your toe in is in the ok range, but there is no magic number- you have to play with it to get it right for the feel you want.

-38 offset won’t make much of a difference at highway speeds.

Did you make sure your wheels bearings are tight?

Is your rag joint in good shape?

Your lift is more like 6” from those pictures, I am about 3” and there is a big difference in your rear panhard angle from mine.

Your truck will have bump steer at that lift height, but that only comes into play if your suspension is actually being worked.

I asked a few questions in a previous post that weren’t answered.

If you noticed no difference at 25psi, most likely your toe in isn’t enough or your sector shaft is adjusted too tight. If the sector shaft is too tight, you will get a cam over feeling when crossing center and it can feel like what you are describing. Usually redhead sends boxes out on the loose side, never seen one that was too tight.

 

[roaminglost]

Your toe in is in the ok range, but there is no magic number- you have to play with it to get it right for the feel you want.

-38 offset won’t make much of a difference at highway speeds.

Did you make sure your wheels bearings are tight?

Is your rag joint in good shape?

Your lift is more like 6” from those pictures, I am about 3” and there is a big difference in your rear panhard angle from mine.

Your truck will have bump steer at that lift height, but that only comes into play if your suspension is actually being worked.

I asked a few questions in a previous post that weren’t answered.

If you noticed no difference at 25psi, most likely your toe in isn’t enough or your sector shaft is adjusted too tight. If the sector shaft is too tight, you will get a cam over feeling when crossing center and it can feel like what you are describing. Usually redhead sends boxes out on the loose side, never seen one that was too tight.

Yeah, plan on messing with toe today.
No slop in the steering at all. Rag is good. Wheel bearings are good; both axles were recently rebuilt.
I have 4" springs, so I'm not sure; just going off Dobinsons' info.

I ended up freeing up the power steering feel by adjusting my solenoid, so I don't think the box is too tight. ive been told redhead sends them out too tight, too loose so i guess their standards are not the same but i dont think its the box.

 

[roaminglost]

Try increasing the toe in angle. 0.17⁰ toe seems so close to zero it's almost inmeasurable. That could be accounted for in the tech attaching equipment to the wheels.
Any amount of play in any part of the steering is going to negate this a
tiny toe angle.

Measure your toe in
Factory spec is something like 6mm total. I don't think the FSM gives a toe angle.

With 35" mud tires (even 33" ATs), I found doubling this to 6mm each side stopped my 2" lifted trucks wandering and following the road so much.

There's loads of threads in how to measure and set your toe angle

On a RHD HDJ81 you can check it with a Mason's string line in minutes.

Caster shouldn't be an issue.
I did a cut & turn on my first 80 that had a 4" lift, abs set it to 4⁰ caster. It tracked great, but steering did feel slightly heavier. Cut & turn comes with is own set of problems. I think there's better options.

going to mess with toe today and rule that out.

 

[peacesells63]

Yeah, plan on messing with toe today.
No slop in the steering at all. Rag is good. Wheel bearings are good; both axles were recently rebuilt.
I have 4" springs, so I'm not sure; just going off Dobinsons' info.

I ended up freeing up the power steering feel by adjusting my solenoid, so I don't think the box is too tight. ive been told redhead sends them out too tight, too loose so i guess their standards are not the same but i dont think its the box.

Definitely worth checking your wheel bearings, especially if you used an aftermarket rebuild kit. The tang on aftermarket wheel bearings lock washers is not long enough to fully engage the groove on the spindle so they tend to come loose. I have had several cruisers come to my shop from highly reputable cruiser shops with loose wheel bearings.

Are your panhard bushings OEM or aftermarket?

Is your panhard adjuster tight?

And are you running a front sway bar?

 

[bug616]

Yeah, plan on messing with toe today.
No slop in the steering at all. Rag is good. Wheel bearings are good; both axles were recently rebuilt.
I have 4" springs, so I'm not sure; just going off Dobinsons' info.

I ended up freeing up the power steering feel by adjusting my solenoid, so I don't think the box is too tight. ive been told redhead sends them out too tight, too loose so i guess their standards are not the same but i dont think its the box.

Do you have the correct weight in/on your vehicle for the springs? If not, you could be a fair bit higher than the 4” you think….

 

[mudgudgeon]

Your toe in is in the ok range

Some quick calcs give me this

3mm total toe in on standard 31" tire equals approx 0.2⁰ toe angle.

6mm total toe in on 35" tires equals approx 0.38⁰ toe angle

6mm total toe in in 37" tires equals approx 0.36⁰ toe angle

You're currently at 0.17⁰ toe angle, less than factory spec.

(I say approximately, because true tire size varies from nominal size)

Big wide tires increases the leverage on your steering system.
Between the steering wheel and the knuckles, there's 7-8 mechanical joints/ connections that can have some play. Then, there's the knuckle trunnion bearings, and wheel bearings.
With not enough toe, the steering system is kind of slack, floating, waiting for input. Any play can allow tires to slop left or right until that play is taken up.
Add some toe in, it pushes the tires inward slightly all the time. This keeps the steering system under tension (theoretically) and eliminates minor play in the steering most of the time.
The bigger your tires, the more they amplify any looseness. This is why more toe is suggested for bigger tires.

EDIT
-38 offset wheels also add a a significant amount of leverage on starting Austen and knuckles.
These will contribute to wandering, but also contribute to the steering wheel input effort required.
The extra offset will also negate done toe in. The offset will effectively push the front wheels backward, or toward a toe out position. More reason to add some extra toe in.
You may have tight joints everywhere right now, but any wear will continue to add to the wandering.

 

[roaminglost]

Do you have the correct weight in/on your vehicle for the springs? If not, you could be a fair bit higher than the 4” you think….

Yeah I have correct springs. Actually went back and fourth with dobinson for like 6 mo figuring it out because my first set was incorrect.

 

[peacesells63]

Some quick calcs give me this

3mm total toe in on standard 31" tire equals approx 0.2⁰ toe angle.

6mm total toe in on 35" tires equals approx 0.38⁰ toe angle

6mm total toe in in 37" tires equals approx 0.36⁰ toe angle

You're currently at 0.17⁰ toe angle, less than factory spec.

(I say approximately, because true tire size varies from nominal size)

Big wide tires increases the leverage on your steering system.
Between the steering wheel and the knuckles, there's 7-8 mechanical joints/ connections that can have some play. Then, there's the knuckle trunnion bearings, and wheel bearings.
With not enough toe, the steering system is kind of slack, floating, waiting for input. Any play can allow tires to slop left or right until that play is taken up.
Add some toe in, it pushes the tires inward slightly all the time. This keeps the steering system under tension (theoretically) and eliminates minor play in the steering most of the time.
The bigger your tires, the more they amplify any looseness. This is why more toe is suggested for bigger tires.

Sounds right to me.

I don’t have an alignment rack, so on my trucks I set toe with a tape measure or with my highly calibrated right eyeball, then adjust to feel when test driving. Therefore I don’t have many precise “after” measurements to recommend.

Customers trucks get a tape measure alignment then go to an alignment shop. Here is one from a 2.5” lifted 80 on 35’s that I set to 3/16” toe in on a tape measure after a complete steering replacement. It felt like it didn’t have enough toe in before, but drove great after removing some toe in.

Some trucks drive better with more, some with less. Too much toe in on a big tire over 3” lifted 80 behaves similar to not enough toe on the highway - twitchy, darting, following lines and the steering “catch” feeling when entering a corner. My 80 that’s on 37’s does best close to zero toe. It’s heavily modified though and has heims on the front panhard, so there is no play whatsoever in the steering.

Here is the front end of my 80, and what I mean by heavily modified. Frame side radius arm mounts are 1.25” forward and .25” lower than stock. Panhard is about 9” longer than stock and within 1.5” of the drag link length. Axle side panhard mount is 4.25” higher than stock, frame side is 2” higher than stock. Drag link mounts 2.25” higher than stock on the axle side. No front sway bar, stays flat in corners since the roll axis is much closer to the COG and the panhard/drag link angles are minimal at ride height. This is as good of panhard/draglink geometry as you can get while keeping coil springs and radius arms. This truck drives nicer than my stock 80, but still drives like crap if these tires are over 25psi.

 

[lumbee1]

Yeah, plan on messing with toe today.
No slop in the steering at all. Rag is good. Wheel bearings are good; both axles were recently rebuilt.
I have 4" springs, so I'm not sure; just going off Dobinsons' info.

I ended up freeing up the power steering feel by adjusting my solenoid, so I don't think the box is too tight. ive been told redhead sends them out too tight, too loose so i guess their standards are not the same but i dont think its the box.

There should be slop in the steering. The FSM called for 40mm of freeplay in the steering wheel.

When I bought my Cruiser, it exhibited similar behavior to yours. It wandered on the road but not bad caster/floaty wandering. It required both hands to steer it. Road imperfections and road crown made it worse. It would drift from one side of the road to the other and required constant steering input to keep it straight. In my case, the steering box was OE and never adjusted or adjusted poorly. I don't remember what the freeplay was but I got it close to 40mm by adjusting the nut on the top of the box. Immediate difference in driveability compared to the white knuckle ride from before.

 

[roaminglost]

First real progress, and something I should've caught earlier.

Got a set of hub-mount toe plates and measured properly. The alignment sheet was wrong. Front 67.5", rear 67 3/8" on the plates. That's 1/8" toe-out at the plate span, more at the tire. The rack said 0.17 toe-in. @mudgudgeon , you called it.

Pulled it into 1/8" toe-in and the straight-line wander got a lot better. Went a full turn past that to bracket it and got basically nothing, so 1/8 to 3/16 is where it stays.

What's left shows up when the suspension is working. Lane changes, bumps, dips. And the more I pay attention to where the input comes from, a lot of it is the rear. Hit a bump and the back of the truck steps out a little, the whole thing rotates, and I catch it with the wheel. Not the front tires getting kicked. Same thing on a lane change once the suspension loads.

Go back and look at the rear panhard angle in the photo I posted. At this height the rear axle is walking sideways through travel, the front is doing its own thing, and I'm getting inputs from both ends that don't agree. Exactly what peacesells said about bump steer only mattering when the suspension is actually being worked.

peacesells, your questions from earlier: panhard bushings are aftermarket, adjuster is tight, and yes, stock front sway bar with new bushings and hardware.

So I'm doing the rear links and panhard, and the front steering linkage while I'm under there and should stiffen things up, i ended up going with Overland Custom Design since hes local:

Upper control arms: 80 Series LC Upper Control Arms - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-lc-upper-control-arm
Lower control arms: 80 Series LC Lower Control Arms - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-lc-lower-control-arm
Panhard bar: 80 Series LC Panhard Bar - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-lc-panhard-bar
Steering linkage: 80 Series Steering Linkage - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-steering-linkage

I know none of this moves a mounting point. Panhard and drag link angles stay where they are. What it does is pull the bushing flex out of the rear and put stronger tubes up front. If the rear bushings are letting the axle wander under load, this should help. If it's the panhard arc at this height, it won't, but i can do a diffrent panhard correction bracket to raise it up a bit like the eimkeith PCK.

 

[Mstudt]

Following along! Let me know if you guys need any help with all the goodies you got.

Mike

 

[peacesells63]

First real progress, and something I should've caught earlier.

Got a set of hub-mount toe plates and measured properly. The alignment sheet was wrong. Front 67.5", rear 67 3/8" on the plates. That's 1/8" toe-out at the plate span, more at the tire. The rack said 0.17 toe-in. @mudgudgeon , you called it.
View attachment 4205384
Pulled it into 1/8" toe-in and the straight-line wander got a lot better. Went a full turn past that to bracket it and got basically nothing, so 1/8 to 3/16 is where it stays.

What's left shows up when the suspension is working. Lane changes, bumps, dips. And the more I pay attention to where the input comes from, a lot of it is the rear. Hit a bump and the back of the truck steps out a little, the whole thing rotates, and I catch it with the wheel. Not the front tires getting kicked. Same thing on a lane change once the suspension loads.

Go back and look at the rear panhard angle in the photo I posted. At this height the rear axle is walking sideways through travel, the front is doing its own thing, and I'm getting inputs from both ends that don't agree. Exactly what peacesells said about bump steer only mattering when the suspension is actually being worked.

peacesells, your questions from earlier: panhard bushings are aftermarket, adjuster is tight, and yes, stock front sway bar with new bushings and hardware.

So I'm doing the rear links and panhard, and the front steering linkage while I'm under there and should stiffen things up, i ended up going with Overland Custom Design since hes local:

Upper control arms: 80 Series LC Upper Control Arms - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-lc-upper-control-arm
Lower control arms: 80 Series LC Lower Control Arms - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-lc-lower-control-arm
Panhard bar: 80 Series LC Panhard Bar - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-lc-panhard-bar
Steering linkage: 80 Series Steering Linkage - https://overlandcustomdesign.com/products/80-series-steering-linkage

I know none of this moves a mounting point. Panhard and drag link angles stay where they are. What it does is pull the bushing flex out of the rear and put stronger tubes up front. If the rear bushings are letting the axle wander under load, this should help. If it's the panhard arc at this height, it won't, but i can do a diffrent panhard correction bracket to raise it up a bit like the eimkeith PCK.

Glad you are making progress!

I have found all aftermarket panhard bushings are too soft, oem are much stiffer and last longer. Most aftermarket panhard bars will take a stock bushing.

Those are nice looking links, but I wouldn't run johnny joints on both ends of the links personally. The rear suspension on these trucks binds like crazy when flexing. Without a bushing to give a little, the brackets see a lot of stress. I make links with a Johnny joint on one side and an OEM bushing on the other to be the best of both worlds.

If you want to reduce body roll and improve highway handling with your lift height, get a front sway bar and bushings from a US model FZJ80. They are substantially thicker than the HDJ81 sway bar, very noticeable difference. When I had a front sway bar, I swapped with a friends HDJ81 - worked out great for both of us since I wanted a softer sway bar and he needed a heavier one.

 

[lumbee1]

Consider @Delta VS panhard relocation while you're in there.

Delta Vehicle Systems - FJ/FZJ80/LX450 Rear Panhard Lift Bracket

Fix your rear end wiggle!

www.deltavs.com

or if you have welding skills Elmkeith panhard riser

Eimkeith 80 Series Land Cruiser Panhard Correction Kit (PCK)

The Original PCK® - Weld-on bracket kit which correct the panhard bar (AKA trackbar) angle on 2-5" of lift. The Eimkeith Panhard Correction Kit returns the panhard bar to horizontal (per the original design), eliminates the need for an aftermarket adjustable panhard bar to recenter the axle...

www.cruiserpatch.com

Both options flatten the rear panhard and remove the wiggle from the rear. For any lifted 80, I consider this a must have.