?-2H ran great-parked: now cranks-won’t start?..help please

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LCDiesel60

10 Year 15 Year
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Apr 8, 2010
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57
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Location
Was Oregon—Now Idaho
So, here’s want we’ve done to trouble shoot;

First, had been driving it on hills and was adjusting turbo fuel-was almost done-but came home and parked rig to finish another day.

Few days later went to start it after normal glow cycle and it just cranked, with barely any smoke..no catching-zip; after several tries put some ether ( I understand concerns) and it popped off but no start and no smoke to barely any smoke.

Diesels are simple: fuel and air they start..if cold takes longer but will puff lots of smoke when cranking—so, suspecting fuel issue..

Diagnostics:
1-read FM on troubleshooting fuel and glow system as follows:
2-checked all fuses: good.
3–pulled 2- different injector lines and watched cranking-slight dribble at each but ‘looks’ insufficient.
4–glow system; works per book; full voltage then later cycles to 1/2 voltage.
5-cracked bleeder at fuel filter; fuel pump prime pumped and no air-solid on primer.
6-frame fuel system; drained sed filter looked great, have additional fuel filter by tank-drain and inspected: good and clean; pulled fuel line and back blew air into tank with cap off to insure no blockage of line up into tank-all good.
7-EDIC function; studied manual-watched rod position; key off, key on and cranking-rod position 3-positions all correct.
8-disconnected fuel line at fuel pump inlet then hooked to a can of fuel; with bleeder open some fuel comes through-seemed small but that’s a generalization: using can of fuel tried starting multiple times: same results, barely smoke no catching.
Shop manual says; fuel pump or injector pump; 9-pulled fuel pump and took apart; looks really clean: piston smoothly comes out and no binding and no bore grooves-springs for check valves seem fine.

Further review of FM specifies testing pump on bench system…to verify specific volume and pressure-no one around for that test in USA-Idaho.. plus it talks about 600rpm and specific pressure so can’t pressure test on engine due to insufficient cold crank rpm.

??—running great, then parked so thought it was electrical or edic….but those are good and can’t think of what could have caused sudden no start but cranks…

Thought about buying new fuel pump but they are so simple and it looks great….

What do I do?

Your wisdom would be appreciated!
 
It smacks of a glow failure to me.

When the glow operation is underway do you see a significant voltage drop (indicating the glow system is actually working).. like you'd expect to see the resting voltage of the battery less at least 1V.. so for example 12.6V -> 11.6V during glow.
 
Duncanrm; thanks for the quick reply.
Glow voltage stays almost the same during the first cycle-we have 2-knew batteries and both plugged into trickle charges before and during cycle.

I used to drive diesel trucks and have had 2-diesel pu’s; when glow plugs were an issue usually I’d have heavy smoke during cranking and sometimes an attempt at a loping start-then catch sometimes..

It’s 48’F here so not cold…
 
If the voltage isn't dropping during the glow operation its likely not glowing. Given the test you just did I'd do two things from here:

1. Apply voltage directly from the Battery+ Terminal to the tip of one glow plug for 5 seconds and immediately crank it.. (jumper lead)

2. If the above fails, I'd pull the glow rail off and test the glow plugs using a test lamp (clip attached to Batt+ and the test lamp applied to each glow plug in turn, it should glow brightly on a working plug)..

Google says 48F is 8deg C.. that's cold for a 2H, and a well functioning glow system would be required, or you'd need to crank it for 20+ seconds to get the heat up enough for it to fire.
 
Duncanrm-if I’m ‘missing’ what you are trying to tell me my apologies: I’ve not eaten today and crashing (1pm) and have been reading a bunch of the FM—taking a break to eat now.

You’ve been a great help on so much in the past—I may need a few more tips to make it clear for me…sorry
 
Duncanrm-lol oks like you sent clarification as I was typing my last note: Thankyou!

We did crank over 20 seconds multiple times with no change.

After eating I’ll do the single direct++ test and attempt to start.

All GP are new as of a week ago.
 
What voltage plugs did you install?
 
Also.. confirm again you've got no air in the filter.. if you've removed the Lift Pump for inspection did you replace/inspect the 4 crush washers for the two banjo fittings?
 
LCDiesel60 said:
We did crank over 20 seconds multiple times with no change.
Click to expand...
Yes, you'd certainly expect a start after 20 seconds of cranking even with no glow system. For completeness, I'd still do the two tests above.
 
Thankyou for your input and patience eith me Duncanrm

I had to put the fuel lamp back together and installed-so just finished a few things.

To your comments and questions:
1–copper banjo bolt washers look good: engine is very clean-painted, was no leaks and none currently.
2–I pumped and vented air out of the system up through fuel filter. Which again confirms the fuel pump is good-thereafter no leaks.
3-tried your first suggestion of jumper wire to nearest glow plug-went longer than 5: cranked, no difference—tried longer, about 20 sec, then cranked a long time-over 1/2 minute: no start or catch and no to minor smoke.

Other notes;
-vehicle is 24v originally Canadian.
-oil pressure runs up mice pegged to 80psi while cranking(when fully warm idles at 25psi) so no low pressure issues.
-new glow plugs are HKT corp from Japan labeled specifically for 2H engine. PT-141 part number from 4wheel auto in Canada-I just looked at online specs; they are 14v Designed for 24v 2H.

It’s moving into late afternoon here and the rain moved in so couldn’t do the glow plug testing you suggested…sorry.

I’ll try that tomorrow.

It seems like it should be something straight forward-recently when I had the head off then back together it started right up after purging fuel supply by hand-idled low a minute while it purged air then smooth as usual: all other starts after that were right away-even sitting a year it would start up like I’d just turned it off.

That’s why I thought-hoped it was a random fuse failure or plugged inline fuel filter.

I’ve read more of the factory manual and nothing jumps out at me…..

So Duncanrm, how did you get so knowledgeable? Lots of break downs hence life’s Phd program or do you have a shop?

Any other ideas let me know-after 15 years of restoration (3 years actual work-the rest, moving, working a lot, other significant life events) …im truly ready to enjoy this with no more to work on it.

Thanks Duncanrm!

Take care
 
LCDiesel60 said:
PT-141 part number from 4wheel auto in Canada-I just looked at online specs; they are 14v Designed for 24v 2H.
Click to expand...
Hmm.. interesting. I am betting these plugs are burnt out.

I don't have specific experience with 24V 2H engines but if there's anything but a working, unmolested, Superglow system fitted then it would need higher voltage plugs than that, and 14V plugs would have burnt out fairly quickly if the two manifold resistors weren't being used..

It may well be something else but everything you've said so far seems to indicate your fuel system is in good order.. I really don't see much smoke from a 2H when its struggling to start without glows.. I'll try my own car tonight without glows and let you know how much smoke I see.

No PhD.. just enthusiastic about 2H engines, very much a one trick pony!
 
OK so the 2H in my HJ47 does indeed produce more smoke than I thought it did when cranking without the glows functional:

 
Bleed nipple cracked open on the filter and cranking..

 
Injector cracked open.. its amazing how little fuel comes out:

 
Duncan-wow, excellent vid references: Thankyou!!
The injector fuel volumes we’ve seen are the same as what you showed-I’ve not tried bleeder flow cranking.

Smoke is much less most of the time with occasional almost that much.

So, my wife is free to help me with key on GP volt and cranking tests so will do those today.

Yes; I truly understand your passion for the 2H engine! Originally I thought I could only have a diesel LC by doing a Cummins 4bt swap—so studied and planned that for almost a year..during that time learned about the ‘million kilometer 2H’ from Toyota-so when I came across one 43 hrs from home-went down that path.

2years later found out out the undercoating had been hiding Canadian salt damage-in 20 minutes of poking around I could easily see the concrete floor from inside—then many other areas. So body swap frame/axle off-this is my last rig and I wanted one low tech-no computers that I can fix..getting older now so need to be done before by brain and body can’t do this full on anymore.

Thanks for all your help!

It’s 1am here..will update you later today after more sleep and LC testing.
 
Good morning Duncan,

Did a couple tests this AM:
1-started with glow plug key on voltage—outside temp 54’F. Results: 12.8v initially diminishing to 12.6v. Ran the test again; started at 12.6 diminished to 12.4v.
—observation; I thought the book stated it should drop to 1/2 voltage after a period of time: this went the same then eventually cycled fully off (screen showed -3.14v)-dont know why it would do that?-positive probe was on GP and neg probe on batt negative….more on this below.

2-second test; re-ran the ether test but upped it a bit:
—sprayed flammable brake cleaner into air filter body closer to engine (have snorkel) and cranked and it smoke heavier but no start. Tried again this time with twice as much solvent in air filter body-plus strong shot of either in snorkel.
—results; cranking smoked hard -then it started!! Right now warming up as I update you and whomever else is following this.

Duncan-your absolutely correct on your first call that it’s a glow plug issue!-what an ace you are!!

Observation; so this 24v vehicle has the precup glow plugs and it has the double elements inserted into the intake manifold towards the back near firewall. I’m wondering since I didn’t see the step down 1/2 voltage on glow plugs..if I’ve not wired something correctly when putting back together—or one of the GP relays isn’t working or?—something in my novice thinking I’m not grasping—auto electric is my weakest..as some may have noticed in my prior cries for help..

Note; when I took the head off for broken glow plug repair; on the intake I only removed the metal strip to glow plugs, one wire that attaches above intake manifold heaters and disconnected the power plugs that hang near the starter-tried to limit dissassemble/assemble errors-but apparently still didn’t put it together right or something has failed at this time.

So-I’m in the shop researching the GP electrical to try and determine how to narrow this down as visually not seeing anything.
 
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