2H Injector Pump - Diaphragm replacement and spring problems?

[new45]

Hi all,

I have a problem with my injector pump, the fuel control arm (gives extra fuel on startup and shuts down the fuel on turn off - controlled by the EDIC motor) has lost its 'spring' and isnt letting the engine turn off, or start properly.

As the arm runs into the engine behind the diaphragm it has been advised that I replace that too. I have pulled apart a spare (dead) injector pump I have out the back as practice, as I plan on leaving the current pump in for the work.

The red circle shows the spring, and where it clips to the arm,



And the arm



And a second pic.



This is the first time I have ever opened an injector pump, and while it was an easy procedure on the bench I think it will be fairly tricky when its still in the car.

My questions are, has anyone experienced this before? is the spring likely to have fallen off? OR shattered into a million pieces?
Is there anything else I can expect to find when I get in there?

Im going to give it a go this afternoon, so seriously any advice appreciated!

 

[duncanrm]

I've been thinking about this since you posted it earlier.. I just cant understand how that spring has come off and suspect that it has in fact broken.. and I agree it will be fiddly trying to resolve this whilst the pump is on the vehicle.. but worth having go, as the only alternative is taking the pump out. You will need eyeballs into the housing and may need to climb up on the motor and drop your head down or take your right hand side guard and fender off.

Its certainly worth taking off the governor housing cover whislt its on the vehicle and confirming the diagnosis..

Alternatively.. you could choose not to fix it at this time and instead jury rig a replacement spring mechanism externally. This would get you through to an opportune time when you're happy to have your vehicle off the road for a week or two whilst you sort it out properly..

 

[new45]

is it that much harder to remove the entire pump and do it on the bench?

 

[duncanrm]

Injector lines have to come off, oil lines have to come off, rigid fuel lines off, return line, flexible fuel line off.. and then the pump has to be reinstalled with very careful attention to timing.. if you have an early 2H (almost certainly) then I believe the timing cover has to come off to be sure that the timing is correct on reinstallation.. so, harmonic balancer off, fan off, potentially radiator out for access..

I've seen contrary opinions about whether the pump can be confidently reinstalled on an early 2H without the timing cover coming off.. but I am yet to get to the bottom of it.. perhaps @watrob or @lostmarbles may stop by and contribute..

A bit of info here about reinstallation suggests the timing cover has to come off..

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/can-you-remove-2h-injection-pump-w-out-pulling-timing-cover.659625/

Dont take the decision to remove the pump lightly.. its a significant job.

I'm no expert though.. I am hoping others with greater insight may also contribute.

 

[watrob]

You will have to take the cover off, unless you never rotate the engine in anyway and never rotate the IP gear either, but if you one tooth out you have a problem.

If you not going to rotate the engine in anyway you could mark a IP gear tooth to the housing of the IP and make sure when you refit the gear back to match the mark once you have finished the serviced on the IP, then place the IP back in the engine. I would probably go this way?

 

[new45]

Thanks guys, I have put the job off untill friday, I will have a go with it on the motor and if I cant get it I will remove the pump (marking the teeth) and fix it then probably get someone to re-fit it for me.

I will come back ant tell you all how i went.

 

[duncanrm]

I will come back and tell you all how i went.

Awesome ta.. a few photos of the pump coming out, and how you marked the teeth would be good.. especially if the result is a successful re-install

 

[new45]

no worries. . . . . . . . your filling me with confidence

 

[lostmarbles]

...I've seen contrary opinions about whether the pump can be confidently reinstalled on an early 2H without the timing cover coming off.. but I am yet to get to the bottom of it.. perhaps @watrob or @lostmarbles may stop by and contribute..
A bit of info here about reinstallation suggests the timing cover has to come off..
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/can-you-remove-2h-injection-pump-w-out-pulling-timing-cover.659625/
Dont take the decision to remove the pump lightly.. its a significant job.
I'm no expert though.. I am hoping others with greater insight may also contribute.

A few minutes ago I read this and went immediately back to that linked thread to change my opinion to say that I believe the IP CAN be removed and refitted without removing the timing cover. (Because I am of the opinion that my learning-curve has gotten me to this conclusion AFTER I posted in that thread.)

And now I move down here to read this:

You will have to take the cover off, unless you never rotate the engine in anyway and never rotate the IP gear either, but if you one tooth out you have a problem.

If you not going to rotate the engine in anyway you could mark a IP gear tooth to the housing of the IP and make sure when you refit the gear back to match the mark once you have finished the serviced on the IP, then place the IP back in the engine. I would probably go this way?

See post #11 I wrote in this thread..https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/rebuilt-2h-first-start-up-issue.828186/#post-9512578

Did I write nonsense there Watrob/Rob?

 

[duncanrm]

Thanks @watrob and @lostmarbles ..

Will be good to hear from @new45 how it all goes... if he does indeed need to remove his pump in the end.

 

[new45]

Well its done!!
and it was really simple!

Pulled the battery, and the battery tray (kept hitting my knuckles on it) removed the diaphragm cover, spring and washers (yes 2 washes?).

The diaphragm was a pain in the ass to get out, it was damaged pretty bad before I started and after I got it out it was ruined (had to jam a screwdriver in through the soft part).

The spring had just fallen off and was a little fiddley to get back on but using a mirror on a stick and a pair of bent needle nose pliers it was relatively simple.

Checked the movement and all was good so I replaced the diaphragm (after oiling it - I dont know if thats needed but I dont think it hurt anything)

Bolted it all up and replaced the EDIC arm then started it up and shut it down with no problems!

Thanks for all your help guys, if it ever happens to someone its actually a pretty easy job.

 

[traveldud]

Where did you pic up the diaphragm and which oil did you use to lubricate the diaphragm? I'm looking for it for a 12ht motor, however from some reads there's a guess that it's the same. I don't know. Thx

 

[handcannon]

Where did you pic up the diaphragm and which oil did you use to lubricate the diaphragm?

I'm looking forward to hearing of others experiences, and what oil they used. For a long time I've been confused about how these diesels worked. Then I started looking up, reading, and learning about the Nissan SD22 diesel motor. It has an almost 100% identical operation and function as these Toyota motors. When I saw the post about the 2H IP diaphragm I immediately started reading and following it, as the SD22 also uses a similar rack, diaphragm, and vacuum control system.

Regarding the SD22 diaphragm, I read of others experimenting of ways to oil/lubricate the leather. Experiments involved cod liver oil (failed, oil got thick and hardened the leather), Redwing shoe oil (same reaction as cod liver oil), Vaseline (for initial coating of the leather) and a few days later adding 4 ml of virgin Seargent Welch lab grade vacuum pump oil to the oil fill port for the diaphragm. "This vacuum pump oil is designed for use in laboratory vacuum pumps, under vacuum conditions and at elevated temperatures. It is designed not to harden (polymerize) and not to react with other materials." (a direct quote from nissandiesel(dot)dyndns.org forums) A report four months later showed no degradation of the leather diaphragm. I have/could find no later reports on this combination and how well it worked on the leather diaphragm.

I'm very interested in replies to this thread as I now have a 1982 Nissan SD22 to put into a 1973 Datsun pickup, which should be an almost drop in project. As I study this motor I find I'm slowly also understanding the Toyota motors better. The function/operation of the IP on the SD22 seems to be a perfect image of how the IP operates on these Toyota motors.

So, I'm very interested in learning about this subject.

Don

 

[lostmarbles]

.... which oil did you use to lubricate the diaphragm? I....Thx

....I'm looking forward to hearing of others experiences, and what oil they used. ............ I read of others experimenting of ways to oil/lubricate the leather. Experiments involved cod liver oil (failed, oil got thick and hardened the leather), Redwing shoe oil (same reaction as cod liver oil), Vaseline (for initial coating of the leather) and a few days later adding 4 ml of virgin Seargent Welch lab grade vacuum pump oil to the oil fill port for the diaphragm. "This vacuum pump oil is designed for use in laboratory vacuum pumps..........A report four months later showed no degradation of the leather diaphragm. I have/could find no later reports on this combination and how well it worked on the leather diaphragm.
I'm very interested in replies to this thread ..
Don

Hi Traveldud & Don

The correct oil to use is Neatsfoot oil.

Any decent diesel injection shop should stock it and be able to sell it to you, but they will seldom tell you what it is (and some of them may not even know themselves what it is). Edit a wee bit later: And they'll usually sell it to you for a greatly inflated price compared to what you can buy it for from someone who specialises in leather products ... or from a general hardware store that stocks a wide range of non-mainstream products .... not that there a many of these hardware stores left in the world these days..

I am very familiar with vacuum pump oil being an ex-refrigeration/AC engineer. (It is mostly just a heavily refined mineral oil that has had the wax removed from it.)

Vacuum pump oil and Vaseline are both petroleum products and as such, should not be used on leather (and would shorten its life if they were).



PS. No need to lubricate the new diaphragm at all when you install it. It should have been sold to you in a pre-lubed state (nice and soft in a sealed plastic bag already smeared in Neatsfoot oil).
Every time you do an oil change on your engine, just add a couple of extra drops through the "drip hole" (after removing the plug-bolt there) is all that's needed..

 

[duncanrm]

Well its done!!
and it was really simple!

Nice.. well done!

Have you road tested it as well? I think the original problem was excessive black smoke?

I'm puzzled how that spring came off.. did you form any opinion on that after the job was complete?

 

[new45]

Thanks guys,

Lost Marbles
Damn, there was already some oil (I'm assuming engine oil) in the space in front of the diaphragm not much but i used my finger to rub some on each side of the diaphragm. I just assumed it would be good. .... oh well its not that hard of a job to replace it again in the future. and now I know.

Duncanrm.
The black smoke was coming from the lever being stuck in the 'over fuel' position because it wasn't moving back to the normal running position. and therefore overfueling, causing black smoke.

I was talking to a 4wd mechanic, and he said he had seen the spring fall off twice before both in time when the diaphragm has gone, so I assume thats what happened.

I havnt road tested if yet, I pulled it off the road for a few days so I can clean up some wiring prior to a rego inspection.

 

[lostmarbles]

... there was already some oil (I'm assuming engine oil) in the space in front of the diaphragm not much but i used my finger to rub some on each side of the diaphragm. I just assumed it would be good. .... oh well its not that hard of a job to replace it again in the future. and now I know...

Yep. Some engine oil always gets through the seals and into that space on IP-side of the governor's diaphragm.

There's a drain plug there that you should remove (say, each engine-oil change) to allow it to drain out so it never gets so deep that it touches the leather diaphragm.

 

[new45]

Thanks again marbles.

 

[hj 60]

glad you solved it, so a failed diagram made the spring release and it can happen to me to

 

[handcannon]

I need to clear up something for Tom. The use of vaseline and vacuum pump oil was something I found on line, not anything I had done. I'm just interested in learning what should be used since I now have the Nissan SD22 motor, which appears to have the same basic IP operation as some of the Toyota diesels.

I spent a bit of time this afternoon/evening doing more searching on line for info about what lubricant to use on the leather diaphragm. I found the posts from the person who used vaseline and vacuum pump oil, and at four years later he reported no adverse effects at that point, though that was three years ago at this time. On that same thread another person reported over six years of problem free service with the use of "clear" power steering fluid. A third person chimed in with info from a book--" "How to Convert Your Car, Van, or Pickup to Diesel" By Paul Dempsey ISBN 0-8306-8968-0 Tab Books # 968 first printing April 78 third print April 80". The author recommended Neats Foot Oil, and the person posting said he had been using Neats Foot Oil at that time for several years successfully, but didn't state the actual number of years. I just wish that I knew the current status of the diaphragm for each person posting.

During this foray into the past I found a copy of a Nissan service book that someone had scanned and posted on line. In it I actually read where Nissan recommended cod liver oil. Yet, I also read a thread by someone else who had used food grade cod liver oil and had posted pictures of the problems caused by the cod liver oil application. Even the manufacturers can be wrong!

Just wanted to update this thread with more info that I found. At this point Neats Foot Oil seems to be ahead in longevity for the leather diaphragm.

Don