2F valve train not oiling? (1 Viewer)

CrowleyFJ40

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Thats what I thought. I was under the impression he didn't change main bearings and drop the crank more than needed to slip in new rod bearings, but just talked to Mark (dad) and he said he had crank out, replace main and rods. But even at that, the #3 main bearing would not be getting oil if put in wrong and keeping oil from going to head, which would after I drove it for 4 days, roughly 50 miles, have seized the motor, right?
 

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Based on oiling diagram (thats out of haynes, much easier to see in the book) it looks like the oil goes through the main bearing and then to cam bearing to head. So even IF the rod bearings are on wrong (seriously doubt it) then that still would not keep oil from going up to the head? Right?




No one is implying that connecting rod bearings control oil flow to the rocker shaft.

I was showing pictures from a previous thread where the #4 main bearing was in fact, installed incorrectly, starving the oil to the #6 connecting rod bearing.

If someone can install the #4 main bearing incorrectly, someone could install the # 3, 2 or 1 main bearings incorrectly as well.

My previous post out here was allegedly questioned by your Father. This should clear that up.

:meh:
 

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But even at that, the #3 main bearing would not be getting oil if put in wrong and keeping oil from going to head, which would after I drove it for 4 days, roughly 50 miles, have seized the motor, right?



Not necessarily; the engine that these pictures came from had well more than 50 miles of running time on it.


:meh:
 

CrowleyFJ40

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We weren't questioning you and really appreciate the help. We just thought that if they were indexed they couldn't be installed wrong. Obviously we were wrong on that one. Just trying to get a good grasp on the oil flow and what could effect it, and if putting main or rod bearings in wrong would have any effect on the top end. I am still confused on which main the oil goes through to get to the cam bearing and then the head. Page 24 of Haynes, secsion 14 says oil goes through #3 main before going to cam and head; but page 34, section 35 says bearings for mains 1 and 4 have oil holes? Don't they all have holes for oil to flow through? I'm wondering if one or more main bearings are in wrong, but at least the one supplying the head.

We pulled the rocker assembly off and cranked the motor. No oil came up out of hole in #4 tower. However, if we pour oil into the hole, it will drain back down VERY slowly. This would lead me to believe that the headgasket is on correctly. If it was not, the oil wouldn't drain back at all would it? (Again, my lack of knowledge of the engine oiling system coming out) Also, the rockers, pushrods, and valves all looked to be in really good condition with no visible wear that seems excessive, so I don't think it's been running long without oil, probably just the few days I have been driving it.

If it's not the headgasket, what are ya'lls thoughts? Main bearing in wrong? Cam bearing (which he didn't touch) moved, if thats possible? Just gunk in the lines? If gunk, whats the best way to get it out? If main bearings, should I just drop the pan and pull off #3 (if thats the one going to the head) and fix if wrong, then button up and run it, or pull motor back out and put in all new bearings and cam bearings to be safe?

Thanks for all the help everyone has given.
 
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A test. Remove the oil filter, then blow some air down the rocker feed hole. This could get messy..... Maybe keep the pressure below 50 PSI.
Some logic: If you poured oil down the rocker hole and it disappeared then it is coming out somewhere. The first outlet (presuming a good head gasket)would be the cam bearing. Since you get no oil out of the rocker hole from the pump, that cam bearing is running dry. Cam bearing could have spun. Ouch!.. The feed to the cam bearing is from the main bearing journal. If you pull the pan and pop that cap you should be able to isolate most everything.
 

CrowleyFJ40

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I'm assuming the test with the air would tell me if the cam and main bearings are lined up by the fact that if oil shoots out of the filter return hole then everything is lined up? I pulled the filter off last night and cranked it just to make sure the oil pump was working and oil did come out from the feed hole.
 
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"oil did come out from the feed hole"
of the filter area? or the head?

I"m guessing you took the filter off and oil came out that area so the oil pump works fine.

Poser can he safely pop off the rocker arm assembly, disconnect the coil and crank to see if oil will come out the head? (probably best to remove plugs to get rid of compression) or does he need to pop the dist out, spin the oil pump with a drill and slowly hand turn the motor to do that test? Hoping to align the cam bearing with the oil feed hole while hand turning?

Other thought is wrong cam.. F and 2F cams had oiling holes for the heads in different locations. I'd prefer you isolate the issue without pulling the pan or cam and defer to higher knowledge.
 
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"oil did come out from the feed hole"
of the filter area? or the head?

I"m guessing you took the filter off and oil came out that area so the oil pump works fine.

No oil out of head. So Yes. Oil came out filter.

The spun cam bearing makes sense. I replaced and heavily assembly lubed all the crank bearings. The cam was not touched so it was dry for 7 years. (at least I would feel better if it was the cam bearing and not my stupidity of putting in a crank bearing wrong.) How can we isolate the problem after we pull the oil pan? If we pull the cap for the crank bearing that feeds the cam and there is not a hole in the bottom half of the bearing does that mean the top is ok??? i.e. what do we look for?
 
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With the pan off and main bearing cap removed, pour oil (ATF might work better because it is red)down the rocker feed hole. Climb under a watch the drips. I would expect to see oil drip from the cam bearing and from the main bearing but it will probably only drip from the cam. I think your only option after that is to loosen a few main journals and try to spin the main bearing out. If anyone has the stuff laying around it would be nice to see a picture of the main journal, main bearing, cam bearing.
 

CrowleyFJ40

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Thanks to everyone for the help. An update and some quetions - I tried the ATF test after pulling pan, oil came out cam bearing but not #3 main. Pulled #3 main cap, and the bearing was in with the holes on the cap side, not the block side.

This means the main bearing was in incorrectly, right? So I'm thinking it would be best to pull the motor and pull the bottom end apart and check the other bearings and excessive wear. Also, this means the #3 cam bearing has been starved for oil for the last 50 miles or so. How can I verify if the cam bearing is bad? I dont' want to have to pull the cam and replace those bearings if I don't have to. The bottoms of all the pistons have oil on them, leading me to believe that the rest of the mains are in correct and the rods are in correct since the bottom of the pistons have been oiling?

EDIT: Posted too soon. Went ahead and go the block side bearing out, it has 2 holes in it just like the cap side does. So the main bearing is in correctly? Spun cam bearing then?
 
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CrowleyFJ40

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OK, so with the #3 main cap off, I poured ATF down the rocker hole and ATF will seep out at cam bearing, but no ATF comes through at the main. My train of thought is that the atf is coming down and seeping out around the edge of the cam bearing and not making it over to the main due to a spun cam bearing.

Does the #3 cam bearing have two holes? TornadoAlleyCruiser couldn't remember, but I think it does. One coming from main, one going up to head. If cam bearing was spun it, could it seep out at cam bearing (especially ATF since it's thinner) but not make it over to main bearing? Is there any other test to do to see if it's a spun cam bearing or just bite the bullet and pull the camshaft to find out?

Thanks.
 
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A cam bearing puller could be used to put in a new bearing. Run the puller in thru the front of the engine and just do that bearing. I made my own once and put bearings in a 390, used threaded rod and some homemade sleeves. Two man job for sure.
 
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Update: We pulled the cam and the cam bearings were ok and not spun. We poured ATF thru the rocker hole and it still wouldn't run free so we blew 40 pound air down thru hole. After blowing thru the rocker hole the we were able to get the aft to flow readily thru the cam bearing opening.
Put the cam back in and poured oil down the rocker hole and it came out around the crank like it should. Sooooooooo...... We think we may be in good shape. Crank bearing still looked brand new. Cam bearings looked good. Lifters looked great also. We got it pretty much put back together by 3:30 when we had to quit because Colin had a reunion to go to.
Best of all (from my point of view) is that I actually put the crank bearings in correctly 7 years ago.
Thanks to everyone for the help and support. Colin will probably give a update tomorrow after he gets oil back into the beast and gives it the real test.
 
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Glad you got it fixed but kind of weird, you got the unexplained thing. In my world those come back and bite me in the axx. You got to wonder if something is in there......
 

CrowleyFJ40

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SOLVED: Clogged Oil Passage

Just wanted to close the loop on the findings to hopefully help someone in the future.

Problem - no oil being delivered to rocker assemby.

Troubleshooting -
o Pulled rocker assembly and cranked with spark plugs to see if oil would come up out of head at #4 tower. No oil present.
o Pulled oil filter and cranked engine to make sure pump was pumping - oil came out at filter supply hole
o Pulled #3 main cap and bearings to make sure they were installed correctly and had not spun. Bearings in correctly and in good condition.
o Pulled camshaft to check for spun cam bearing. Holes lined up and bearing in good condition.
o Poured ATF down oil hole in head and it barely came out of feed hole in #3 cam bearing, should have come running out. Blew compressed air (40psi) through oil passage, then tried ATF. Flowed freely and quickly out of passage.
o Put cam back in and ran oil down passage, while slowing turning engine by hand until the cam oil holes lined up. Oil went through to #3 main.

Buttoned the engine back up and then filled with oil. Cranked again with plugs out and oil came out all holes in the rocker assembly. It appears that it was a gummed up oil passage from the engine sitting for so many years. Just gotta keep my fingers crossed that we got it all out.

Thanks to everyone for all the help getting this diagnosed and back on the road/trail.
 

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