13BT upgraded turbo...again (1 Viewer)

[FJBen]

WARNING, multiple conference call math and attention span.

So when I rebuilt my 13BT ~2 years ago, I just had the stock turbo rebuilt. In hindsight, I should have researched more and got an upgraded turbo as the CT26 they put on the 13BT is sized wrong from the factory. I've read countless threads over and over and think I have a fairly good idea of a few turbos that would work, but just want to run it by those much smarter than me on turbos.


Currently has a rebuilt CT26 with about 20K miles on it. Works good, just too big and a little lazy for the 13BT.



13BT, 3.4L, 120HP stock, 200ish for torque (I think wikipedia is wrong...shocker, on 13BT torque)
120hp @ 3400rpm
200tq @ 2000rpm


"IF" I did my math right according to the internet (I'm sure it's probably wrong)

13BT, 3400cc = ~208 cubic inches.
208ci x 3400rpm divided by 3,456 = 205
205 x .80 efficiency = 164cfm (is my efficiency too low?)

2:1 that would be 327cfm at 14.7psi
3:1 would be 492cfm at 29.2psi

I won't be running 30psi, ideally topping around 20ish, so that would be 410cfm at 22psi, If I'm correct.


Now further down the bad math hole I go, if I'm converting cfm to lb/min I've seen multiple ways to do this, or people saying it's impossible, weather/humidity/air/earths wobble at axis etc..
410cfm / 14.7 = 28lb/min (no idea if this is right.) or 410cfm * .069 = 28.29. So somewhere in there...

So needs 410cfm, or 27~28lb/min and around 2.5pressure ratio


So if thats somewhat correct, here are some findings from mud and suggestions I've read. I tried to map them, so hopefully.

Garret GT2252R, seems to be a good fit

�

Turbo PN	CHRA	Inducer	Exducer	Trim	A/R	Inducer	Exducer	Trim	A/R
Turbo Reference Data	Compressor	Turbine
452187-5006S	451298-0006	40mm	52mm	60	0.51	50mm	43mm	72	0.67

GT2052 - might be on the small side
�

Turbo PN	CHRA	Inducer	Exducer	Trim	A/R	Inducer	Exducer	Trim	A/R
Turbo Reference Data	Compressor	Turbine
727264-5001S	451298-0043	38mm	52mm	52	0.51	47mm	40mm	72	0.50

As @Dougal has suggested the TD04H-19T. This looks like a pretty good fit for the 13BT, better than the GT2252.

The GT2052 has been mentioned, but I think it's a little small. Will boost away off idle but choke out pretty quick. Any other turbos of value I should be checking with?


@saltycoconuts how is your turbo swap going?

 

[FJBen]

I have also looked into Gturbo and Munro turbos for bolt on options. They look like really good setups, however, the price can be double or more of a Garrett or TD04.


I don't have a flow charts of the CT26 or the Gturbo so it's hard to compare. Both companies agree that the CT26 on the 13BT is just wrong.

 

[Dougal]

MHI turbines are IMO far better suited for these engines than Garrett.

 

[FJBen]

MHI turbines are IMO far better suited for these engines than Garrett.

Are you talkin the TD04HL-19T in like a 5cm or 7cm?
11 blade or 6+6?
Do you prefer geuine MHI or some aftermarket brands good?

There is a lot of options for the TD04s, TD04H, TD04HL just making sure I'm finding the right one.

 

[Dougal]

Are you talkin the TD04HL-19T in like a 5cm or 7cm?
11 blade or 6+6?
Do you prefer geuine MHI or some aftermarket brands good?

There is a lot of options for the TD04s, TD04H, TD04HL just making sure I'm finding the right one.

TD04HL is the biggest turbine in the TD04 frame. 5-6cm turbine housing sizes are ideal for this size engine.

9 blade turbines are for ricers. You want 11 blade turbine for low end response.

 

[FJBen]

More research... @Nz Nath reminded me about a turbo I had looked at before.

Holset HE221. Again there are quite a few variations of this one as well.

I found this one online from a few years ago, which may or may not be correct. It's the 7cm housing I believe.

Compressor:
Exducer: 60mm
Inducer: 44.2mm (HX27W has a smaller inducer, supposed to be 41.5mm but I have not measured that one myself)
6+6 blades
54 Trim

Turbine:
Inducer: 52mm
Exducer: 46.6mm
80 Trim
11 blades (HX27W turbine is same size but 12 blades)

They also have a 5cm, 5.5cm, and 6cm housing. I think the 5.5 or 6 would probably be a better fit for the 13BT overall.

 

[-MaTTi-]

Holset HE221. Again there are quite a few variations of this one as well.

Yes there is. Mine HE221W is smaller than the common ones, I measured the compressor wheel 40.9/58.1 mm, turbine wheel 44.2/48.8 mm. The exhaust housing is 5.5 cm2. View attachment 2762742View attachment 2762741View attachment 2762743View attachment 2762747View attachment 2762746

 

[Nz Nath]

@-MaTTi- That's the same turbine wheel and housing that I've been running, I would guess my compressor is the same size as that also. Spool up was great, torque was great, but on the dyno started to choke the engine a bit after peak torque at about 2400rpm. However my divorced wastegate dump pipe might be partially to blame as the wastegate side is only something like 40mm diameter.

 

[-MaTTi-]

@-MaTTi- That's the same turbine wheel and housing that I've been running, I would guess my compressor is the same size as that also. Spool up was great, torque was great, but on the dyno started to choke the engine a bit after peak torque at about 2400rpm. However my divorced wastegate dump pipe might be partially to blame as the wastegate side is only something like 40mm diameter.

Yes, let’s see how it works in 3B. I’d like to get drive it mild boost only (about 7 psi) and without turning fuel pump screws.

But that’s sometime 2022-2023 when it’s done.

 

[FJBen]

Yes there is. Mine HE221W is smaller than the common ones, I measured the compressor wheel 40.9/58.1 mm, turbine wheel 44.2/48.8 mm. The exhaust housing is 5.5 cm2. View attachment 2762742View attachment 2762741View attachment 2762743View attachment 2762747View attachment 2762746

Thanks for that info Matti. I do wonder how it will work on the 13BT. I would think if you are going for low and quick spool this might be the ticket for sure. It might be a little small but I'm trying to find a map of that compressor.

@-MaTTi- That's the same turbine wheel and housing that I've been running, I would guess my compressor is the same size as that also. Spool up was great, torque was great, but on the dyno started to choke the engine a bit after peak torque at about 2400rpm. However my divorced wastegate dump pipe might be partially to blame as the wastegate side is only something like 40mm diameter.

Thats interesting if it's a little to small. Choking after 2400 doesn't seem good. Do you have the model number for the bigger one you are looking at?

 

[Dougal]

More research... @Nz Nath reminded me about a turbo I had looked at before.

Holset HE221. Again there are quite a few variations of this one as well.

I found this one online from a few years ago, which may or may not be correct. It's the 7cm housing I believe.

Compressor:
Exducer: 60mm
Inducer: 44.2mm (HX27W has a smaller inducer, supposed to be 41.5mm but I have not measured that one myself)
6+6 blades
54 Trim

Turbine:
Inducer: 52mm
Exducer: 46.6mm
80 Trim
11 blades (HX27W turbine is same size but 12 blades)


View attachment 2763602


They also have a 5cm, 5.5cm, and 6cm housing. I think the 5.5 or 6 would probably be a better fit for the 13BT overall.

It's related to the MHI TD04HL-19T. The HE221 has more boost capacity but the TD04HL is more efficient.

Pick your compromise.

 

[FJBen]

It's related to the MHI TD04HL-19T. The HE221 has more boost capacity but the TD04HL is more efficient.

Pick your compromise.

Good info there. Do you or anyone have a good source for the TD04HL-19T? Is that a 6cm housing? Seems like it comes from a Subaru Forrester XT OEM and possibly a Volvo, but I can't seem to find a true MHI turbo in that setting, only Mamba/Kinugawa

 

[Nz Nath]

The 'big' he221w I've ordered is this one Holset HE221W Turbo with 7cm Exhaust Housing - https://trundlesautomotive.co.nz/collections/turbo/products/holset-hx27-turbo

Probably could get it a fair bit cheaper off ebay, but I'm happy to support a local business. Also they sent it straight out, just got delivered now after I started typing this. Going to fit it straight up, if the oil drain is the same as the small version I'll take it for a test drive (Level4 lockdown here in nz, so stuck home from work). I'm going to run it with the 8.5cm twin scroll turbine housing, hopefully done by next weekend.


Possibly too restrictive wastegate dump pipe.

 

[Nz Nath]

Dyno with small he221w. Those are flywheel figures

 

[-MaTTi-]

Dyno with small he221w. Those are flywheel figures

View attachment 2763884

How much boost?

 

[-MaTTi-]

It might be a little small but I'm trying to find a map of that compressor.

I think this is close to Mitsubishi 15T:

Or HE211W (not 221) turbine (can’t found the compressor map).

 

[FJBen]

Mambatek turbo


Complete CHRA balanced by SCHENCK MBRS 110 Germany
Upgrade factory VOLVO 240 / 740 / 940 TD04H-13C-6 turbo engine to TD04HL-19T-7 Monster.

Spec
Compressor Wheel : 46 mm / 58 mm (GTX 11 Blade Billet Wheel 19T)
Turbine Wheel : 45.6 / 52 mm (TD04HL Performance High Inconel)
Support 280~350HP

Bearing system
Journal Bearing
Performance Thrust Bearing Kit Included.
Cooling System
Oil and Water-cooled system
Turbine Housing
7cm / A/R .49



HE221W from @Nz Nath

Holset HE221W Turbo

Wastegate - Internal
Compressor wheel - 6+6 split blade
Inducer - 43.5mm
Exducer - 61mm
Turbine wheel - 11 blades
Inducer - 52mm
Exducer - 45.7mm
Turbine housing - 7cm2 T25

 

[FJBen]

Here’s a not very scientific video of my CT26 with the air filter/snorkel bypassed to see the difference. (Only ran for a quick test)

 

[Dougal]

Good info there. Do you or anyone have a good source for the TD04HL-19T? Is that a 6cm housing? Seems like it comes from a Subaru Forrester XT OEM and possibly a Volvo, but I can't seem to find a true MHI turbo in that setting, only Mamba/Kinugawa

Aftermarket has the best selection for those turbochargers. Be wary 0f 9 blade turbines though. Those are for ricers who want top end power. You want the 11 blade turbine wheel for torque and efficiency.

 

[Dougal]

The 'big' he221w I've ordered is this one Holset HE221W Turbo with 7cm Exhaust Housing - https://trundlesautomotive.co.nz/collections/turbo/products/holset-hx27-turbo

Probably could get it a fair bit cheaper off ebay, but I'm happy to support a local business. Also they sent it straight out, just got delivered now after I started typing this. Going to fit it straight up, if the oil drain is the same as the small version I'll take it for a test drive (Level4 lockdown here in nz, so stuck home from work). I'm going to run it with the 8.5cm twin scroll turbine housing, hopefully done by next weekend.


Possibly too restrictive wastegate dump pipe.

What does the turbine wheel look like? The genuine HE221's had the best turbine as that was the key to their success. A lot of copies had old geometry wheels that combined with the (high pressure but low efficiency) compressor would make them a lazy dog.

The good turbines have blades that look backswept at the exit.

8.5 is a big housing for your application. Are you keeping boost down? The more boost you run the less wastegate flow you have. I don't see any issues with that downpipe.