What will the next gen ATRAC be? (1 Viewer)

[ShottsUZJ100]

What I was describing, a ATRAC woth air locking diffs, is similuar to the Hummer H1 torsen LSD set up. The Hummers torsen LSD are high torque biased so that with a little breaking pressure you achieve lock. With an ATRAC and computer controlled air lockers. The ATRAC would continue to distribute the torque by modulating the ABS system. Simulr to how the LSD works but in extreme instances will go fully locked when needed. The advantage over the Hummer setup is that its computer controlled vs the mechanical torsen LSD and has the reliabilty and quickness of air lockers. Something the Hummer H1 can not do is lock with out brake pressure (reducing effect and power). The LC would could go to full lock with out losing power and instant on and off, applying the lock only as long as its needed.

I know this may soudn uncomfortable to many who are used to engaging lockers manually. But you must realize taht when you locked you only need to be for moments or seconds during the obstical run. The rest of the time an open diff or ATRAC would work just fine.

From my experience on and off road I cannot agree that setup to be superior.

I have been on off-camber and loose climbs where a rear locker pulled me right to the cliffs edge. No thanks! I'd unlock and stick with TRAC-only, and back up if needed to restart. I can't imagine climbing a hill like this and when slippage becomes too much the rear locker automatically kicks in and SIDEWAYS to the edge I go. No thanks!

Then there's icy conditions. Last winter I experimented with locker(s) vs TRAC-only. In most places the locker slid me out of control wheras TRAC kept me straight and controlled every time. The last thing I can imagine is a slick road or hill, TRAC's working to get me through or up then WHOOPS......the rear locker just locked and to the ditch I go.

Final scenario......Climbing a hill or huge rock.....whoa.....wheelift...keep on the gas, get up the hill, the opposite wheel on the ground is STILL spinning....then.....LOCK AND SNAP! That spinning wheel off the ground? The diff? It just locked the locker and the spinning wheel snapped your R&P or axle, or whatever.

Using lockers can be dangerous to your truck and your life (in the mountains). This is one reason I believe why we see so few on rigs and why we see rear-locker options but no front-locker options (well, except for a very few).

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

full lock

I'm not picking on you, I'm just foruming along. I missed the words "full lock".

Oh man, sure don't need an auto-locking FRONT locker. That'd be even worse.

I do follow your thoughts and agree totally in theory. Man it would be sweet to just not worry about anything. Right now, the 100's as close as you can get to that. I just can't add lockers into that full-auto design.

 

[rzpapp]

Shotts I think a point you might be missing is just like ABS the TRAC computer is not goign ot LOCK up and stay locked up with the driver hammering the gas till the rig blows up. I am suggesting like in ABS the ATRAC computer will QUICKLY modulate IN and OUT of lock only when it sense it can not control wheel spin with the normal ATRAC methods. It would be evil if the comptuer locked the diffs and then shut off!

ATRAC would ALWAYS stay on. Look at the snow situation. The reason you almost wiped out with lockers on in the snow is that you apply consisted power during an extend locked period. Future ATRAC could sense wheel slippage along with throttle control even yaw (tail comming out) and be able to apply the best method to keep traction. Giving it locking abilty would only be additive not disable all other features.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Shotts I think a point you might be missing is just like ABS the TRAC computer is not goign ot LOCK up and stay locked up with the driver hammering the gas till the rig blows up. I am suggesting like in ABS the ATRAC computer will QUICKLY modulate IN and OUT of lock only when it sense it can not control wheel spin with the normal ATRAC methods. It would be evil if the comptuer locked the diffs and then shut off!

ATRAC would ALWAYS stay on. Look at the snow situation. The reason you almost wiped out with lockers on in the snow is that you apply consisted power during an extend locked period. Future ATRAC could sense wheel slippage along with throttle control even yaw (tail comming out) and be able to apply the best method to keep traction. Giving it locking abilty would only be additive not disable all other features.

Sorry. I'd never want my truck to lock a diff on it's own.

 

[Ocelot]

First of all I'm not sure how you would make a diff lock and unlock quickly enough for what you guys are talking about, and secondly I dont know how you would make it strong enough not to go snappy snappy when it suddenly locks up with the driver on the gas. As well judging by the computer controlled stuff thats out there now it would be fooled way too easily and be a hinderance in more situations than it would be a help.

As well I can't see it offering any advantage over trac. If you only need it engaged for a few seconds then Trac (or a torsen/trac combo) will do the trick. If you need it engaged longer than that than locking up the diff manually will do the trick. I cannot see the need or the desire for all this automated junk. Whatever happened to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)? The more complicated you make something the less reliable it is going to be. I can't imagine a possible scenario where an automated locker would be advantageous and can't comprehend this fascination with and desire to add automation. Why not just use a little bit of driver skill instead of just plowing the accelerator and hopeing all the gizmos on the truck will do everything for you?

 

[FirstToy]

Whatever happened to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)? The more complicated you make something the less reliable it is going to be. I can't imagine a possible scenario where an automated locker would be advantageous and can't comprehend this fascination with and desire to add automation. Why not just use a little bit of driver skill instead of just plowing the accelerator and hopeing all the gizmos on the truck will do everything for you?

I agree w/ everything you say except the attitude. However, the 100 series and every modern Toyota SUV is not KISS- and I think that's good. There's something to be said for power everything, cush,plush and capable.

People think ATRAC is stupid and useless until they realized it was just another tool.
ATRAC turns off if the driver gases it, it automatically will only activate below a certain rpm and once you learn how to use it, is very... useful.

This is just a "what if" discussion. It isn't wanting everything done for you, it's just thinking about the next gen. of ATRAC... that is all.

There are times when my ATRAC has failed me but if it locked then I would have been ok. ARB lockers are pretty darn fast.

 

[Ocelot]

Sorry didn't mean for there to be attitude... maybe I shoulda put in some smilies...

Even though arb lockers are fast I still dont think they'd be fast enough? and that still doesn't solve the snappy snappy problem.

 

[rzpapp]

Yes this is future talk. And yes todays auto computers have undesired buggy-ness. And yes what I am describing is simular to a torsen diff set-up but I belive if controlled correctly by the computer superior. A driver should always have the option to override.... and like a said before if the driver is has the pedal to the floor and the computer slams on the lock that would be evil. the computer would clearly have to use throttle and engine speed as an input to its lock or not to lock descion matrix. And it could "help" the driver by limiting engine speed. Sometime too many of use us the GAS to break out of situations, when all it does is break things

BTW... the reason I am arguing this point of view... is I like new modern features like ABS, TRAC stabilty control, GPS... and even (dare I say) IFS... I do appreciate the stock FJ55.... but there is a reason I have 100 and not a pig... I like gadgets, and 100 is marvel of technolgy, craftmenship applied to SUV offroad abilty

 

[tabraha]

In any situation I can imagine a computer controlled diff engaging and disengaging, I can picture a LSD doing the action quicker, with less stress on the drivetrain and upsetting the attitude of the vehicle far less severely.

When I engage a locker it is usually in a potentially unsafe scenario. I need the wheels to react 100% as intended or else something bad happens. There is no margin for "oops I thought the computer would lock it up by now." No manufacturer would ever bring the liability of auto engaging lockers on themselves.

The new Eaton locking system on the Grand Cherokee functions basically as you envision. It can deliver 100% locking unlike a LSD but is electronically managed unlike modern e-lockers. It varies the level up to 100% which is the key point you are overlooking. The e-locker goes from 0% to 100% with nothing in between. With the eaton eGerodisc it is variable which coupled with the LC's much more effective version (than the GC) of TRAC and you probably would have a real gem.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/04/16/189790.html