Upgrade Alternator vs. New Battery (For Winch)

[barrypt5]

So I was at Costco this week with full intent to purchase a Yellow top Optima battery. When I got there I just could not bring myself to spend $159.95 on a battery that has not exactly been raved about here on this forum, and the fact that the warranty on it is not that great. While standing in front of the battery stand I called a truck buddy of mine (non-Cruiser person at the moment) and told him the situation:

I currently have an interstate battery(Interstate Batteries - Every Battery for Every Need ) and a 10k T-Max winch that I have yet to really use yet but become concerned with battery life during a difficult winching situation…and from there buying a yellow top Optima that people have not really like…am I wasting my money? The other hard part was that there was a large Kirkland Marine Deep Cycle battery for ~$60 with a much longer warranty but I have not heard of anyone using this one or if it will even fit at all. His response was what about a High Output Alternator?

So I came home empty handed and decided to research alternators (https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/173200-130-150-amp-alternator-upgrade.html ) I had heard or the mean green alternators but new they were pretty expensive, but there had to be other options!!!

I guess the first question I have (whether it is a good one or not) is, is it a valid option to keep the battery I currently have and upgrade the alternator for use with a winch??

And the second question, to get it out of the way, has anyone ever used the Kirkland Marine Deep Cycle battery?? (PS see Signature for Cruiser specs…)

I have no future plans of getting a fridge or any other high power usage item just the winch and a set of Lightforce 240’s. I do realize that the alternator route, such as the 150 amp tundra version, may be a difficult install and more of a strain on the motor but it is still going to get me what I want with the battery I have and a winch?

I am planning another trip to Costco this weekend and this time will be armed with the battery tray dimensions to decide if the Kirkland Marine will even fit…and if so I may just buy it, does anyone think this is a bad idea? I am pretty new at the whole deep cycle marine battery thing so maybe I am way off base?!?!?

At this point I am just going to stop b/c the thread is getting long and I would rather hear what other have to say than my skewed opinion. Thanks to all in advance!!!

Barrypt5

 

[Brian894X4]

Personally, if I could only have one of two things...a very high capacity, high quality battery verses double the alternator power (from 80 to 160 amps)...I'd choose the battery.

The higher capacity battery is going to serve you better in other circumstances, such as giving you a longer reserve capacity in the event your alternator does die. A higher quality battery will survive winching much better than a cheapy or old battery. If your battery is destroyed, the higher capacity alternator doesn't mean much.

No alternator makes enough power to run the winch, which means that the battery has to be a higher qualiter and higher capacity battery no matter what. A higher capacity alternator will help...but only a little bit and will only make the difference on long pulls.

Most of us, run a dual battery system and stock alternator. This seems to work perfectly fine. On my system, the winch runs off of both batteries, which then doubles the capacity. I personally would recommend a dual battery set up, but if you want to keep the system stock, I'd try to find the highest capacity battery of the higher quality batteries, that you can fit in the stock battery location with a minimum of 650-750 cold cranking amps. Some higher capacity and deep cycle batterys have lots of storage capacity, but are rated much lower CCA, because they are designed for slow long low power draws, not the extreme draws of a starter motor or winch.

Typically battery capacity is rating in terms of Amp Hour or reserve capacity. Amp Hours means how many amps the battery can produce in one hour before reaching a certain voltage. Reserve capacity is basically how long the battery can put out 25 amps under certain conditions before it drops below a certain voltage. A car engine typically pulls about 10-20 amps, so it's a good indicator of how long the car can run off of the battery, if the alternator died. The highest capacity car/SUV Optima is 120 minutes. That same battery has about 55Ah capacity, if you want to use that rating.

Optima does make a commercial yellow top that is 900CCA and 155 Reserve Capacity about 70+ Ah. I think for semi-trucks, but in the D31 size. It's probably a spendy sucker, but I'll bet it would make one heck of a single winch battery. I would love to have two of those. I just have two of the prior mentioned yellow tops.

 

[Photoman]

Think of the battery as a bank. The more money you have in the bank the longer you can pay the bills. Think of the winch as your wife. She can really pull the bank account down quickly. If you have two bank accounts the longer it takes said wife to empty them. Think of the alternator as your paycheck. The bigger the paycheck the faster you can refill the bank account and keep the wife happy.

Kidding aside here is some math. Lightforce 240’s are 100 watts each. 100 watts X 2 lights = 200 watts. 200 watts / 12 volts = 16.66 amps. So the lights are going to take approx. 16.66 amps to operate.

A winch can pull 400 amps or more.

Strictly speaking at 100 percent efficiency 1 HP = 746 watts. An 80 amp alternator would create 960 watts. (12 volts X 80 amps = 960 watts) 960 watts / 746 = 1.29 HP.
A 150 amp alternator is 12 X 150 = 1800 watts. 1800 watts / 746 = 2.41 HP. Then 2.41 HP from the 150 amp minus 1.29 HP to create 80 amps = 1.12 HP difference. This is of course theoretical. There are going to be friction and efficiency losses. Both alternators are going to have a HP penalty to run their fans etc. The point too is that only when the 150 amp alternator is producing above 80 amps is it going to take any more HP to operate.
Keep in mind once a battery is topped up by any alternator the alternator basically free wheels other then the friction and fan losses. An alternator only produces amps when and in the amount needed.

Bill

 

[barrypt5]

Thanks for the replies guys and I hear what you are saying about if you have a HO alternator but your battery is dead...what good does it do...so from there it does kind of go back to the argument of which battery is best...and unfortunately there are tons of opinions on that one....

so Brian are you that the Kirkland Marine may not be a good option if it has low CCA? that is if it even fits

Well hopefully others will continue to comment, i am liking what i am hearing

barrypt5

 

[Atoyot1031]

I personally hate my stock alternator. Myabe mine just sucks (extra bad), but I watch voltage drop when I'm driving and I close my windows! I'm going with a HO alternator, and I can always add a double battery setup down the road.

P.S. For winching, an OEM hand throttle is very nice!

 

[sandcruiser]

if you can find space for it, you might consider adding a 2nd alternator instead of upgrading the stock alt.

either way, you get more amps.

While the winch may pull as much as 400 when it is operating at full capacity, it pulls a lot less most of the time.

but it probably pulls more than what your alt can provide most of the time.

If you do infrequent but very heavy pulls, then the extra battery capacity makes sense. If you do frequent pulls that aren't too heavy, then you are almost certainly better off with higher amperage alternator(s).

 

[FirstToy]

I got a Kragen Gold oem replacement. It was cheap (I think $70) and good warranty. I've winched with it (tho not very often at all) and run a fridge on trips. It works fine for a couple years now. It has sat for a long period without starting but no problems there.

 

[robmir]

I personally hate my stock alternator. Myabe mine just sucks (extra bad), but I watch voltage drop when I'm driving and I close my windows! I'm going with a HO alternator, and I can always add a double battery setup down the road.

P.S. For winching, an OEM hand throttle is very nice!

This problem has been widely blamed to the alternator lack of enough amps but unfortunately it has more to do with the thinner gauge wiring between the alternator to the front fuse block to the ignition switcher and then to accesories drived by the switcher in the ign position.

I did some tests with brand new 80's years ago by bypassing temporaly the OEM wire hooking a #6 gauge wire streight from the + battery post to the ignition wire output cable from the ignition switch on the dashboard and wow the windows started to go up and down like they were turbocharged

Add a few years to your rig, enough overheated and pitted closing contacts in the ignition switcher, overheated female spade terminals on the switcher harness plug etc. and you have enough bumps to lower your voltage.

Of course If you analize the wiring design by Toyota, it make sense that the ignition switcher is basically drived directly from the alternator output post which should have a higher voltage versus the battery by itself, as to power up the vehicle accesories and then charge the battery.

Worst case scenario would be driving when raining, at night with lights on, on a bumper to bumper trafic, with wipers on, air condition on and the feet pushing the brake pedal and yeah you gazillian watt capable sound equipment at the highest volume driving your party to the clouds !!!!!

Then you will see your voltage drop and if your battery is not topped up or in bad shape, you will start to have problems , when no matter how many CCA or reserve power your battery have you WILL wish to have a big alternator capable to output as much amps as possible at this lower RPM's !!!!

 

[Brian894X4]

so Brian are you that the Kirkland Marine may not be a good option if it has low CCA? that is if it even fits
barrypt5

Well, I don't know anything about Kirkland Marine batteries, but I know that Warn winch has a requirement for at least 650 CCA for it's winches. I've seen some Marine batteries that are around 500 CCA or less and I would probably avoid those, just to be safe.

I'm not a battery expert by any means, but I'm guessing that higher CCA batteries must have thicker plates or internals or something to allow the rapid high current draw. The thing is, a winch is going to draw more current than any auto or marine battery will ever see in its life, even if used as a motor starting battery or even a small electric boat engine battery.

I'm sure there are probably heavy duty marine batteries that are designed for double duty as an engine starter battery somewhat deep cycle duty, if you're looking at Marine batteries only.

I would probably look towards the commercial trucking industry and the batteries they sell as they are going to have batteries designed to start high compression diesel engines, and run long duty without the engine and even run winches. That's probably where the best 4x4 and winching/starting batteries are going to be found.

Otherwise, the biggest and highest capacity Optima or similiar type battery should work just fine. Odessey makes some pretty high capacity and high CCA batteries too. A good battery does come at a price.

 

[toycruiser]

Look into dry cel batteries, they seem to have a lot of CCAs. Check out Poly Performance.com, they carry a selection.

 

[robmir]

.

The thing is, a winch is going to draw more current than any auto or marine battery will ever see in its life, even if used as a motor starting battery or even a small electric boat engine battery.

I'm sure there are probably heavy duty marine batteries that are designed for double duty as an engine starter battery somewhat deep cycle duty, if you're looking at Marine batteries only.

I would probably look towards the commercial trucking industry and the batteries they sell as they are going to have batteries designed to start high compression diesel engines, and run long duty without the engine and even run winches. That's probably where the best 4x4 and winching/starting batteries are going to be found.

Most if not all yatchs have two big big diesel engines and last week I stopped at a marine shop were I saw the heavyest, baddest and biggest deep cycle marine batteries in my life with CCA over 1500 amps and reserve times of hundreds of minutes .

I guess if you are miles away from the coast you should need the most dependable battery.

I noticed diesel truck driver's keep their engine on as much as possible and don't use often deep cycle batteries versus the marine scenario were they stay a long time in a place with many of the boat electronics on sucking juice, since the users are swiming around or fishing with the boat motors off and not always have their backup diesel generator on, so they relay on their big reserve deep cycle batteries which also have a lot of CCA to turn on their couple of 600hp an up motors.

Most of the trucks are owned by company's which try to save as much as possible and the drivers doesn't care much but boat owners are picky and search for the best quality and most dependable batteries so I would trust more on a boat owner recomendation than the one provided by a truck driver.