RESOLVED: Aux Tank: VERY Slow to Fill (1 Viewer)

[Solace in Solitude]

Hi all,

When I installed my 22 gal aux tank, I plumbed all ports, fuel feed, fuel return, fuel filler, breather and three ports to the evaporator. I also used a 2nd OEM Sender, a DPDT switch on the dash and a Pollak 6-port electric switch.

Everything works great... Except it takes a ridiculous amount of time to fill it... I can't even get the pump handle to the first 'lock' without it kicking back out the mouth.

I know the breather works, I tested it... The filler mouth, on the passenger, rear fender/quarter, is ~6" above and ~4" to the left of the filler on the tank itself. The filler hose has two 45* elbows to get from mouth to filler on the tank.

Have I sabotaged my filler, by placing it too low? Are the 45's killing me?

I can live with it, but my arthritic hands can't...

Any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[BeeJii]

My first guess would be breather tube, but since you have that covered i think i share my allmost similar experience from past and solution that worked then.
Dont know if this will help with your proplem, but i got one car that had samekind of issue with it´s own gastank. After fighting with it for a while found out just with luck that if i twist the filling pistol sideways a bit and dont put it all the way in but just halfway it would work like normal and wouldnt cut off in the middle of filling. Took a while to get used to it, but it worked every time for that car.
Not sure what was causing it though? My guess is that it could "breathe out" better that way?

 

[honk]

This is too coincidental!

My pretty new install - I've filled it once - has the same slow filling and I'm suspecting my having vented it to the vapor recovery separator is the problem.

I've got almost the same setup you have except my filler is a boat deck unvented filler inside the right rear corner of the tub just behind the right rear seat. When I first went to fill it I couldn't get the nozzle going for more than a second or two before clicking off.

After giving up on trying for a seal against the filler neck I was able to get it filled. The only thing I think it could be is that the vapor thingy isn't an adequate vent at the speed that gas can push air while filling. After I had it full I switched to the aux tank and drove about 20 miles without any stalling or other gas feed problem so I think the vapor can is good enough for running, just not for filling.

I tee'd into one of the hoses into the vapor gizmo at the front of the wheel well so it'll be easy to disconnect and route to outside air next time I fill.

 

[Solace in Solitude]

My first guess would be breather tube, but since you have that covered i think i share my allmost similar experience from past and solution that worked then.
Dont know if this will help with your proplem, but i got one car that had samekind of issue with it´s own gastank. After fighting with it for a while found out just with luck that if i twist the filling pistol sideways a bit and dont put it all the way in but just halfway it would work like normal and wouldnt cut off in the middle of filling. Took a while to get used to it, but it worked every time for that car.
Not sure what was causing it though? My guess is that it could "breathe out" better that way?

Thanks. I've turned the pistol to no avail. But, I don't know that I have not pushed it in all the way... I'll try that next.

Thanks!

 

[Solace in Solitude]

This is too coincidental!

My pretty new install - I've filled it once - has the same slow filling and I'm suspecting my having vented it to the vapor recovery separator is the problem.

I've got almost the same setup you have except my filler is a boat deck unvented filler inside the right rear corner of the tub just behind the right rear seat. When I first went to fill it I couldn't get the nozzle going for more than a second or two before clicking off.

After giving up on trying for a seal against the filler neck I was able to get it filled. The only thing I think it could be is that the vapor thingy isn't an adequate vent at the speed that gas can push air while filling. After I had it full I switched to the aux tank and drove about 20 miles without any stalling or other gas feed problem so I think the vapor can is good enough for running, just not for filling.

I tee'd into one of the hoses into the vapor gizmo at the front of the wheel well so it'll be easy to disconnect and route to outside air next time I fill.

Some days seem worse than others.

44 runs great on it, it's just filling that's killing!!

I'd like to keep the separator in the loop, but plz let me know what happens if you try it without the separator.

I don't have trouble filling the stock tank and it's still connected to the separator, but it's right next to it...

 

[Downey]

As one of the manufacturers of aux. tanks for Landcruisers, let me tell you what I know about our rear nylon fuel cell filler:
(1)They are made of very thick nylon plastic, tougher than steel tanks, but because they are so thick the inside diameter of our filler neck on the tank gets molded too small, and fuel would feed slower, clicking off the fuel filler nozzle. For that reason we made a special tool to machine out the inside diameter of the tank's filler neck to open it up- - -end of that problem.
(2) Even with the tank's filler neck opened up, customers said it still fills slow and/or clicks off the filler nozzle. We then changed our installation instruction sheet to have installer mount the fender filler neck panel as high as possible without entering the passenger compartment (so that 2" I.D. filler hose is at very top of wheel well).
With number (1) and (2) above accomplished, customers quit complaining about filling too slow and/or clicking off the filler nozzle.

 

[Solace in Solitude]

As one of the manufacturers of aux. tanks for Landcruisers, let me tell you what I know about our rear nylon fuel cell filler:
(1)They are made of very thick nylon plastic, tougher than steel tanks, but because they are so thick the inside diameter of our filler neck on the tank gets molded too small, and fuel would feed slower, clicking off the fuel filler nozzle. For that reason we made a special tool to machine out the inside diameter of the tank's filler neck to open it up- - -end of that problem.
(2) Even with the tank's filler neck opened up, customers said it still fills slow and/or clicks off the filler nozzle. We then changed our installation instruction sheet to have installer mount the fender filler neck panel as high as possible without entering the passenger compartment (so that 2" I.D. filler hose is at very top of wheel well).
With number (1) and (2) above accomplished, customers quit complaining about filling too slow and/or clicking off the filler nozzle.

Thank Jim!

Mine is an old tank and the filler neck could be a little larger, but isn't.

But, I was already considering moving the fender filler neck panel directly in line and above the tank filler. But, it's about as high as it can go now.

Since I'm in Las Vegas, I will seldom be driving in mud... Maybe snow in the wintertime... I'm also considering leaving the filler panel where it is and disconnecting the filler tube. That would allow me to replace it with a short filler tube, mounted directly to the tank filler, under the fender... easy to access on mine.

But, whatever I do will be after the holidays... I'm going out with my son-in-law, while he's here for Christmas.

In the meantime, I'll try backing the nozzle out of the filler neck, as @BeeJii suggested... I can't recall if. I've tried that.

Thanks!

 

[handcannon]

Danny, can you get a pic of the filler tube? I've had some experience with home built auxiliary tanks, though it has been a lifetime ago. That in itself will require me to wind up the memory until it is going fast enough that it may implode. A quick trip down memory lane brings up some problems with short filler necks with sharp turns that increases pressure against the shut-off in the pistol grip. A very short filler that allows the fill nozzle to go a short ways into the tank also seems to bring back memories of splash back from the tank causing problems.

Anyhow, some pics just might jog this rusty old memory.

Don

 

[mcjb]

This is happening to me too. I'm taking it to Mudraks this week to see if he can resolve it. I'll let u know what I hear.

 

[Solace in Solitude]

Danny, can you get a pic of the filler tube? I've had some experience with home built auxiliary tanks, though it has been a lifetime ago. That in itself will require me to wind up the memory until it is going fast enough that it may implode. A quick trip down memory lane brings up some problems with short filler necks with sharp turns that increases pressure against the shut-off in the pistol grip. A very short filler that allows the fill nozzle to go a short ways into the tank also seems to bring back memories of splash back from the tank causing problems.

Anyhow, some pics just might jog this rusty old memory.

Don

Don,

I've tried a number of different fill tube fashions, in an attempt to improve the fill rate... my last change was cutting the fill tube into three sections and adding two 45* PVC elbows... it's temporary... my intent was to find a good configuration and then have a custom metal fill tube made. I just haven't found a configuration that satisfied me... I don't mind slow, but this is way slower than slow... so, pictures are meaningless right now.

I'm taking 44 down to have the warranty clutch work done in the morning. On the way, I'll add a few gallons and see if not putting the nozzle so far in makes a difference...

With a breather, from the tank to the fill tube, I didn't expect to have this kind of issue... but, now I'm wondering which side of the fill tube the breather is on... I hope I turned it so the breather is on top ... I'll check it in the morning too. EDIT: I should have thought of this before...

Thanks Don!

 

[Solace in Solitude]

This is happening to me too. I'm taking it to Mudraks this week to see if he can resolve it. I'll let u know what I hear.

Please do!! Thx!

 

[ducktapeguy]

What type of fuel filler neck do you have? Is it the stock con-ferr? I've had the same problem in my jeep, sometimes in the FJ. Where is your vent tube in relation to the filler neck? Are there any loops in the vent line and how did you verify it's clear? Have you also checked the condition of your chacoal cannister and check valve? The vent line might be clear but whatever it's connected to might be clogged.

I think you're probably on the right track that the filler neck might not be high enough to get an adequate flow rate into the tank. Once the fuel reaches the end of the nozzle it thinks it's full and shuts off. If yours is like mine the filler sits almost horizontal because of how low the opening is in relation to the tanks.

On the FJ, if I hold the filler so it's pointed down and not pressed against the top of the filler tube, that seems to help. I think it's because the flow of fuel sometimes splashes and blocks the vent recovery tube in the gas station filler, holding it at a steeper angle may lessen that possibility. Not sure about your area, but in CA all the gas pumps have the vapor recovery nozzles. You can test if it's a vent issue by manually holding the seal back from the neck while filling to see if that improves it. Just be careful because gas can splash out pretty forcefully, so don't stand in line with it, and you'll get some pretty bad fumes coming out.

On my jeep the problem it was because the little spring loaded flap in the filler neck was pushed down too far for the nozzle to open it fully, leading to the fuel backing up. Kind of the same problem that the fuel backs up into the nozzle to shut it off early. I used short section of copper pipe to force hold it open and now it works better. The bottom line is you just need to keep the gas flowing away from the end of the nozzle fast enough to prevent a backup.

 

[Solace in Solitude]

.

What type of fuel filler neck do you have? Is it the stock con-ferr? I've had the same problem in my jeep, sometimes in the FJ. Where is your vent tube in relation to the filler neck? Are there any loops in the vent line and how did you verify it's clear? Have you also checked the condition of your chacoal cannister and check valve? The vent line might be clear but whatever it's connected to might be clogged.

I think you're probably on the right track that the filler neck might not be high enough to get an adequate flow rate into the tank. Once the fuel reaches the end of the nozzle it thinks it's full and shuts off. If yours is like mine the filler sits almost horizontal because of how low the opening is in relation to the tanks.

On the FJ, if I hold the filler so it's pointed down and not pressed against the top of the filler tube, that seems to help. I think it's because the flow of fuel sometimes splashes and blocks the vent recovery tube in the gas station filler, holding it at a steeper angle may lessen that possibility. Not sure about your area, but in CA all the gas pumps have the vapor recovery nozzles. You can test if it's a vent issue by manually holding the seal back from the neck while filling to see if that improves it. Just be careful because gas can splash out pretty forcefully, so don't stand in line with it, and you'll get some pretty bad fumes coming out.

On my jeep the problem it was because the little spring loaded flap in the filler neck was pushed down too far for the nozzle to open it fully, leading to the fuel backing up. Kind of the same problem that the fuel backs up into the nozzle to shut it off early. I used short section of copper pipe to force hold it open and now it works better. The bottom line is you just need to keep the gas flowing away from the end of the nozzle fast enough to prevent a backup.

Not sure what type of filler neck I have, I bought it from @Downey.

After a conversation last night, I went out this morning, to make sure the breather tube (about 2" from the mouth of the filler) was positioned at 12 o'clock... I'm embarrassed to admit that, when I mounted the filler neck, I rotated the breather to 9 o'clock. That would negate the breather, almost entirely.

I rotated the filler neck today, the breather is now at 12 o'clock - I'll take it out in the morning and see if it's any easier to fill and will report back.

Thanks!

 

[Solace in Solitude]

Well... I can't report back yet... daBoise and I fired up 44 and drove to the bank to cash some pet insurance checks and the clutch died at the bank window. Turns out the slave cylinder rod popped out of the cylinder... this is warranty item, from my rebuild. So, I retrieved the Tundra with my tow bar in the back, hooked it up and pulled it back to the shop.

The mechanic had found the rod too tight and adjusted it (looser) yesterday... today, he said that it messed u the seal, so he's sourcing a new slave and I'll pick 44 up in the morning and tow her back... I'll stop at a gas station on the way back and see if the aux tank fills easier...

 

[Weber Sarge]

I'd be wondering about the clutch condition now as well as the throwout bearing if that slave was adjusted too tight . I've got a bearing that sings a bit from the previous owner but so far the clutch itself is holding fine . You need to hand him the fsm and follow all the steps for proper setup . This way , pedal height and slave adjustments are correct - helps them last for a very long time .
Sarge

 

[myquestoyota]

So glad it happened in town and not out in the desert.

 

[honk]

The mechanic had found the rod too tight and adjusted it (looser) yesterday... today, he said that it messed u the seal, so he's sourcing a new slave and I'll pick 44 up in the morning and tow her back... I'll stop at a gas station on the way back and see if the aux tank fills easier...

When the clutch adjustments are done according to FSM I think a lot of general mechanics would think it's adjusted too tight. The spec is very small - like less than .02" (I'd need a run out to the shop to give it exactly) and any Chevy mech would see it as too tight.

I'm saying that the reason yours popped out is likely your mechanic's adjustment. He screwed up the seal too because of it and you shouldn't be on the hook for the new cylinder he's 'sourced'.

 

[Solace in Solitude]

I'd be wondering about the clutch condition now as well as the throwout bearing if that slave was adjusted too tight . I've got a bearing that sings a bit from the previous owner but so far the clutch itself is holding fine . You need to hand him the fsm and follow all the steps for proper setup . This way , pedal height and slave adjustments are correct - helps them last for a very long time .
Sarge

Yep. I only have about 1200 miles on it, but I've got 'til Feb on this warranty. So, I'm gonna go through the setup steps myself after the Holidays, to be sure.

Chester is coming along nicely - thanks Sarge!

 

[Solace in Solitude]

When the clutch adjustments are done according to FSM I think a lot of general mechanics would think it's adjusted too tight. The spec is very small - like less than .02" (I'd need a run out to the shop to give it exactly) and any Chevy mech would see it as too tight.

I'm saying that the reason yours popped out is likely your mechanic's adjustment. He screwed up the seal too because of it and you shouldn't be on the hook for the new cylinder he's 'sourced'.

No problem Honk, he's paying for the replacement. Never and argument. The clutch slave was the only thing I didn't fully understand about my rebuild results.

I had replaced the slave, with a new Aisin, right after I bought 44 in March of '14 and it was fine. But, when they hooked it all back up they found the slave leaving and had to replace it.

I wonder if they screwed up the seal on the Aisin when they put everything back together.

But, an Aisin slave is < $30, so I'll buy another to carry with me @myquestoyota - you're right, don't want to be without my clutch in town, let alone in the Big Empty!! It was a real surprise... I pulled up to the window, at the bank, and all was good. I shut 44 off, for the transaction, . Restarted and stepped on the clutch and "nothing"... That towbar comes in handy!!

 

[honk]

No problem Honk, he's paying for the replacement. Never and argument. The clutch slave was the only thing I didn't fully understand about my rebuild results.

Good. I was imagining how the pushrod could come out of the clutch lever and thought that that mechanic must have thought that it needed a whole heck of a lot of clearance or he left off the return spring..