Lack of a locking differential :(

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pagemaster

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Other than cost, which really is not the reason why. Can anyone give me a logical, well thought out answer as to why the Land Cruiser for NA lacks a rear locking differential?

Can't be because off KDSS = 4runner has both
Can't be because of A-Trac = Tacoma has both
Can't be because of crawl control = 4runner has both

The FJ, Tacoma and 4runner have it as an option. So does the 4.7/5speed Land Cruiser from overseas....why can't the US spec offer it? it makes sense for the Land Cruiser to have it, perhpas even the TRD Tundra


:please note I am not bashing or otherwise trying to start a fight.
 
The 100 series after 2000 did not have a rear locker either. So the LC has not had a rear locker for 11 years. Might be good to poke around in the 100 forum to ask around in there. From what I've read most serious off roaders with the 100 have been ok with A-trac as an option instead of lockers.

The reasoning behind why Toyota made the switch I do not know.

However I do like that A-Trac does not have to be engaged, it's always on and works at any speed. It's saved me once or twice on ice covered roads. As I'm sure it has for you in your Sequoia.
 
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IMOP 200 are not really a hard core off road vehicle .. so lockers are expensive and not necesary as is .. cash from lockers when in other comfy stuff ... which I'm pretty sure you like .. 200 series it's more like expedition vehicle ..

76 / 78 / 79 Land Cruiser series still have the factory locker option ..
 
Tapage said:
IMOP 200 are not really a hard core off road vehicle .. so lockers are expensive and not necesary as is .. cash from lockers when in other comfy stuff ... which I'm pretty sure you like .. 200 series it's more like expedition vehicle ..

76 / 78 / 79 Land Cruiser series still have the factory locker option ..
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Tapage- I don't agree with this, the Land Cruiser 200 does indeed come with factory locking differential on select 4.7/5speed models. These models also skip all the extras.

As for being expensive, the 4runner/Tacoma and FJ all offer it...why not the LC?
 
pagemaster said:
Other than cost, which really is not the reason why. Can anyone give me a logical, well thought out answer as to why the Land Cruiser for NA lacks a rear locking differential?
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Why do you exclude cost? The LC or even the LX does not sell into a cost is no-object market.

Answers you get from anyone without access to Toyota's internal engineering and marketing discussions and data is speculative. I would speculate that spending something like $500 of Toyota's cost on something like better leather for the interior, iPhone support or easier to use navigation systems, rather than including lockers, results in larger incremental sales numbers and/or a higher actual sales price. Particularly since A-TRAC appears to function as advertised (at least in my experience so far) and so mitigates the need for lockers in a large number, if not most, real world situations. At the same time A-TRAC avoids the performance issues lockers inherently have.

This cost function is perhaps less true or even the opposite in other markets, such as for FJs or 4Runners which must sell against Jeep "Rubicon ready" marketing.

While personally I would like more say in how the LC/LX are equipped, lockers rather than say power 3rd row seats or 3rd row seats at all, are a tradeoff I might make, the current automobile market doesn't seem to permit such flexibility.

As an aside, if ARB offers lockers for a given vehicle, which they appear to do for the 200 series, I'd much prefer that the factory spend the engineering dollars on the stereo integration. As mods go, adding ARB lockers is one of the easier to get "right".
 
rhllc said:
Why do you exclude cost? The LC or even the LX does not sell into a cost is no-object market.
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IMO cost cannot be the factor. The LC and LX does sell to the cost is no object crowd. Toyota claims that the average income of LC owners is $240k while LX owners makes more $350k

In Ontario for instance, you need a minimum of $120,000 to get into a LX if it was sold for MSRP. If you have a $120k to spend on a LX, you sure has hell will not object to $120,500 for a locker.
 
pagemaster said:
IMO cost cannot be the factor.
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Grasshopper - ponder this quote by Henry Ford.

Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black.

As you said, cost doesn't matter, and surely there is a successful cosmetic sales person out there somewhere who wants to purchase a factory pink LC so they can deliver cosmetics over any terrain and in any weather.

For now, lets assume the the cosmetics person googled "A-TRAC vs locker" and decided that that A-TRAC was good enough for them after viewing some u-tube videos. After all, they only have one customer who lives off the Rubicon trail. But that house can be reached without lockers if one comes in from the lake side to avoid the more serious rock crawling.

But what is Toyota's logic behind not offering pink as a LC color choice?
 
Only the 4runner Trail edition comes with a locking diff. The other variants use A-Trac. Perhaps because it's been marketed as a "Trail" edition Toyota has put in a locking diff, even if it's not completely neccessary.

I've driven about 12 different 80 series LC's over the last few months. These are 15+ year old vehicles and most of them had never had the locking diff engaged.
 
pagemaster, people have given you various opinions and you don't seem to like any of them. What answer are you looking for?
 
patrickfinley said:
Only the 4runner Trail edition comes with a locking diff. The other variants use A-Trac. Perhaps because it's been marketed as a "Trail" edition Toyota has put in a locking diff, even if it's not completely neccessary.
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Patrick, yes it is the trail edition but that model comes with both A-TRAC and Locking differential.
 
Middle east version Dont have it on VX trim its only on GX trim.
I use both of VX and GX trims i like crawl system on VX than Diff lock on GX its.
 
pagemaster said:
Tapage- I don't agree with this, the Land Cruiser 200 does indeed come with factory locking differential on select 4.7/5speed models. These models also skip all the extras.
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rhllc got my point ..

rhllc said:
I would speculate that spending something like $500 of Toyota's cost on something like better leather for the interior, iPhone support or easier to use navigation systems, rather than including lockers, results in larger incremental sales numbers and/or a higher actual sales price.
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FCJ and 4R have locker coz they are oriented to other buyer leage ?
 
Vehicles are made for NEW CAR buyers...not folks who want to build used trucks (like the folks here). Nobody buying a NEW LC or LX in the US wants or even knows what a locking differential is...same for a diesel motor. Hell...when I bought my new 2001 for the specific purpose to wheel it I had no idea what a locker was and/or ATRAC. :D

New buyers know they are great vehicles...they test drive them...they like them (5.7L V8) and they buy them, drive them and never leave pavement.

Lower-cost rigs like 4Runners are designed for a completely different NEW CAR buyer.
 
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ShottsUZJ100 said:
Vehicles are made for NEW CAR buyers...not folks who want to build used trucks (like the folks here). Nobody buying a NEW LC or LX in the US wants or even knows what a locking differential is...same for a diesel motor. Hell...when I bought my new 2001 for the specific purpose to wheel it I had no idea what a locker was and/or ATRAC. :D
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This is where it gets tricky for me. On the one hand I agree with you that new car buyers aren't looking for these features. But if it's true today, certainly it was true 15 years ago? Why did Toyota think factory front and rear locking diffs were needed in a $50000 luxury wagon? Why would a LC need a boxed frame and a solid rear axle when IFS and IRS can do just the same for a new car buyer.

So it stands to reason that Toyota has to consider that new car buyers make decisions ( among other reasons) based on how the truck will resell in the used crowd, and how reliability and performance will hold up over time. And we all know that locked trucks, whether they be 4Runners, Tacomas or Land Cruisers, sell better, cost more, and are in higher demand than their open axled counterparts. Would anyone pay $7500 for a 15 year old IFS/IRS truck with open differentials? Probably not - it's already in the crusher....

Toyota recently brought back the locking diff in the 4Runner after a nearly 10 year absence, so it's not completely clueless about what our segment wants. It's just that the NA Land Cruiser has grown up and out of it's playful roots, and the Tacoma and 4Runner have replaced it.

I think Toyota is at a bit of a crossroads with the Land Cruiser in North America. It is priced based on a legacy that it no longer represents, lacks competitive performance options that other full size SUV's offer (for the average American's needs), and to the average consumer the value over a Sequoia or Tahoe or Escalade isn't clear. I'm honestly not sure why someone "not in the know" would by a Land Cruiser in today's market.
 
Jacket said:
I think Toyota is at a bit of a crossroads with the Land Cruiser in North America. It is priced based on a legacy that it no longer represents, lacks competitive performance options that other full size SUV's offer (for the average American's needs), and to the average consumer the value over a Sequoia or Tahoe or Escalade isn't clear. I'm honestly not sure why someone "not in the know" would by a Land Cruiser in today's market.
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This is a good point.

I don't see the Land Cruiser in Toyota's North American line up in 10 years.

The LX570 (or whatever they end up calling it) will continue.

The LC's days are numbered.
 
Last few posts have been pretty much right on. I think the SUV market "bubble" of a few years back really distorted the market. Many manufactures seem to be desperately trying to maintain/get back to those sort of volumns by making their SUVs more passenger car like. Not sure how this working out for them, my sense is not well overall. But this is such the prevailing wisdom of auto market and press "experts", who never really understood SUVs to begin with, that they really don't have any other options. Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, etc. pounds every SUV that doesn't behave like a mini-van.

My hope is that at least a few old style type body on frame/truck like SUVs survive as lower volume niche vehicles. But it really appears touch and go.

Toyota made a decision to go upmarket (Range Roverish) with the LC for the North American market long ago, just when the SUV bubble was inflating. But that decision and the parallel decision to start the luxury brand Lexus without a high end SUV never really made sense. Correcting that decision by adding the LX to the Lexus model line, left the LC in North America a very tiny niche while at the same time probably canablizing some LX sales.

I really would like to see Toyota differentiate the LX and LC further. A diesel LC with a much simpler interior, at least rubber floormats, and "Trail" options like real tires, winches and lockers would pay homage to the LC tradition and name in the way the current model can't would be my preference. I don't hold out much hope of this happening as they really seem to be pushing the FJ and 4Runner trail for the "hardcore" niche and I doubt the NA market would support a 3rd such option from the same company. Maybe if the FJ just went away.

Since the name Land Cruiser has such market recognition I don't see the name disappearing. Whether it is attached to the same platform as the LX though remains to be seen. I do think that Toyota internally understands what the Land Cruiser name represents historically, so there is some hope it won't end up on some rebadged uni-body type platform.
 
As I said before .. they are still holding the " Land Cruiser concept " in the 78 / 76 and 79 series .. what I believe it's there much $$$ involved in making 'em available to the US or any first world country with Hi level regulations ..
 
Tapage said:
I believe it's there much $$$ involved in making 'em available to the US or any first world country with Hi level regulations ..
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It wasn't a coincidence that the US SUV craze gained momentum while the US regulators pretty much treated SUVs as if they were trucks and ended when they noticed all the SUVs around and started regulating them like cars. The lawyers jumping on board with roll-over class action lawsuits didn't help.
 
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