Install aluminum head warm? Warning - obsessive.

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C-Dan,

Price check on isle 4. And BTW, if you find there's 1 set of grey carpet left in the US then I'll buy it 'cause that stuff in Dougie's truck is gonna start stinkin' in a few days and that piece of new carpet could be worth it's weight in gold by Spring. :D

-B-
 
Man what mirror did you break, or what god did you piss off lately? This has to be the end of the fun you are having. Get the head on and enjoy the fruit of your labor. robbir
 
Don't make the mistake of using the coolant temperature as a parameter in estimating expansion and contraction of the metals in your engine. Cylinder combustion temperatures far exceed coolant temperatures at all times during engine run, often rising to 1000 degrees and more. So the actual temperature ranges endured at the joint between head and block can range wildly up and down. This is why engine designers pay serious attention to the quality of finish given the surfaces of both materials, and is also why this silly fretting over differences between component temperatures at the levels under discussion are useless. Unless it's running it's a cold engine whether in your garage in part and your bed the other part.
 
<<<" Yep, literally 100 yards from the place's driveway one of them exploded. From the back seat, it drenched the windshield and you don't wanna know what the back seat looked like.">>>

OMG......:eek:


I would blow a gasket right then and there....:flipoff2:
 
what the hell...can't be much worse than the 5 gallons of wort that I let loose in the den when the glass carboy broke during a primary fermentation:eek: I kinda liked it, while the other half had a different opinion.:rolleyes:

I agree with Dan...take that puppy and heat it to 1200 degrees, and then install it.:D Be sure to take pictures.
 
You guys make me laugh, which is a good thing. I have a pretty humorous life in the main, but this place is always good for a laugh. Bartender, a round of drinks for everyone!!!

I started to put the block heater in before I took off to swim a mile with some buddies at the club. Couldn't believe how easy it was to take the freeze plug out this time compared to when I did it on the 93 back in 93. Of course, the exhaust manifolds are out of the way (minor detail). Anyhow, budgeted an hour for this and took only 10 minutes. Now I just shove the heater in and screw it tight. Next, I'm gonna use that snazzy insulation cloth to wrap the wire harness near the EGR pipe, then the head later this evening. I want to get it onto the block tonight as it's the only thing I need help with so tomorrow I can finish on my schedule. Which is FREAKIN' NOW....


DougM
 
IdahoDoug said:
OK, with too much time on my hands staring at an empty block I'm almost ready to put the head on. I was wondering if there's any advantage to putting the aluminum head on warm since the block is stone cold.

SNIP

Any obsessive/compulsive thoughts?

DougM

Man, I can't come up with anything even REMOTELY as obsessive and weird as that, Doug! Have you been breathing too many solvent fumes?

I wonder how fast you would have to install and torque the head bolts to keep any sort of temperature differential between the block and head? If you had helpers ready to thread the bolts in and torque them in tandem, maybe it would work. Would you pre-heat the bolts also? How about pre-heating just the top half of the head gasket?

I sure would like to see a video of that!

Good luck on the remainder of your ordeal. Get some sleep and some sense....

John Davies
 
IdahoDoug said:
Overall, I suspect the engineers expect the parts to be bolted together at the same temperature so this is likely best.

This one.
 
OEM is best, if you must get aftermarket rotors go solid,

crackedpowerslot.jpg

DSCN0266a.jPG


https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=33086
 
Well, here's the repair. Up close and personal it looks like the aluminum just flowed with no notable interruptions. Then someone pinged it here and there with a punch as though they were confirming their work had no voids, etc. Dunnon on that - guessing:


The head's back on. Tomorrow I'll bolt the rest up and I hope to drive it to the Spokane airport to pick up my bro in law who's coming for T-Day (brother of the 292,000 '93 80). So John Davies - stay by the phone in case I need you to rescue us......heh. Been wanting to meet you anyhow, so..

The head bolts all measured easily in spec, so I reused them. On the third one, the resistance suddenly dropped for a second. So I unbolted them all and pulled this one out for a look see. No change in measurement or appearance. Slapped it back in, and this time it did not give that wierd feeling through the rest of the tightening sequence. I recall a couple of the bolts doing this last time and I've been wanting to ask Rick if this is why you regretted not chasing the head bolt threads before reinstalling? Did you get a couple with this wierd feeling, too or was there something else that made you feel that way? Anyhow, I chalked it up to some slippage in the head/washer area rather than the threads. This based upon the large number of oiled threads engaged and the probability that some frictional change occurred simultaneously along all the threads, vs the washer sliding for a bit suddenly when it had been pinned down to the head. Dunno for sure, but it felt good that it happend only on #3 so easy to pull out and measure to confirm nothing amiss. So, I guess we all now know you can use an 80 head bolt at LEAST 3 times. I hope nobody reading this ever has to use that info.

I put the gasket on dry (chickened out on the fancy sealant). I left the head in the garage so it was the same temp. And my bro in law helped immensely by keeping the tightening sequence as his job and simply pointing to the next one for me. As this is stressful, it can feel a bit overwhelming to do alone unless you're in the zen mood. I was not after cleaning apple cider off the interior. I just followed his pointed sequence and he simply studied the FSM and oriented himself to point. We took to calling the rear two buried by the firewall "back to the cave..." as it required an odd ultra short extension to reach with room to swing the pipe back there.''

We got here tightened up on the block, and tomorrow we'll get after the camshaftsand timimg gears.''

I'm thinking tne mudisc will be Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" while I slug a huge bowl of coffee and start to smile a bit in the morning. Heck it's all downhill from here. Just a bunch of bolts.
 
Doug good luck brother you need some.

Oh and the rest of you guys, thanks I needed once again to spit coffee all over my keyboard at 5:45 AM again due to mud induced laughter.
 
I can give you the formulas for expansion of aluminum and cast iron when I get to work. I think aluminum is about 21 micro-inches per inch per degree F, and iron about 56. So half the length of the head, and whatever temp diff you think, and we're still estimating and wondering if it matters.

As far as the juice, I think I can top it! My wife's solution to my kid's oversleeping is occasionally to let them eat breakfast cereal (!) in the truck on the way to school. It's of course filled to the brim with milk, and still full when all the cereal is eaten, and the bowl is left on the floor of the truck when the kids get out. I find it later that day, or in a couple days, grrr. We now have three older vehicles that originally sold for over $50k and feel like new, because I maintain them so carefully. grrr.
 
Scott,

Morning. Whatever it is - it is (expansion numbers) as there are 14 bolts clamping the head on and I'm not heating or screwing around with it. The next heating will happen with Chevron Premium. Forgot to mention the gasket looked slightly different this time even from the one I just took off. I'll study the one I took off to see what I can see - might have been just color. This one was back ordered for several days, so might be an update gasket quickly shot through the Toyota parts system after they crushed one trying to get it to me.

Will be nice reassembling today with no cleaning or such. And yes, it's nice seeing perfectly new looking valve faces, and all new seals on the valves, sparkling exhaust ports, etc. Guess it's nice having a parts washer big enough for a 3 foot head!!

DougM
 
I thought I posted that wondered where it went, wrong thread :doh:
 
scottm said:
I think aluminum is about 21 micro-inches per inch per degree F, and iron about 56. .


I thought aluminum expanded more than iron? maybe same #'s but reversed?
 
IdahoDoug said:
Well, here's the repair. Up close and personal it looks like the aluminum just flowed with no notable interruptions. Then someone pinged it here and there with a punch as though they were confirming their work had no voids, etc. Dunnon on that - guessing:

Good looking job. A good welder will peen the weld with a hammer or punch to stress relive the weld.
 
Doug,
I would think that even if you heated/cooled both the head and the block to the same temp at install to bolt everything up, you would still get some shear in the gasket as the two dissimilar metals cool off at different rates sitting in the driveway after you run the motor. In addition, even if the head and block are the same metals, I doubt the head and block would be at the same temperature all along the head gasket mating surfaces anyway.

I would be willing to wager my 11' aluminum Starcraft rowboat against your big fancy boat that a thermal image of an at-operating-temperature engine would show some alarming hotspots and relative cool spots. I've gotta believe that, even though you are correct in assuming there is some lateral movement between the head and block, the design of a good head gasket will account for this and seal well in spite of the movement.

Steve
 
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