Front Wheel Bearing Too Tight ?

[elmariachi]

I just ordered some new outer bearings, which should arrive tomorrow, I also have som new bearing washers as the ones on there now, have worn a groove around them where the inner of the bearing has spun.
while I have them stripped down, I will check to see if there is any looseness in the bearing nut threads, as this would definitly cause the bearings to be set at the wrong clearance when you lock up the lock nut, even if you have 2 thou of freeplay in the nut thread, that would make the bearings tight when you lock up the luck nut.

Bearings spin because the assembly is too loose. Because the outer face of the bearing and the inner core of the bearing are the same piece, that also means that the bearing has spun on the spindle, which in turn could mean the spindle has seen excessive heat and wear. If you get the torque and preload set correctly, that shouldn't happen again unless the spindle is too worn. The outer bearing face will be held in place by the proper torque, leaving only the rollers to move inside the bearing, which is what you want. Again, I'd abandon any sense of feel in favor of shooting for a 10-12 ft/ lb. preload setting. You also need to be at or near 65-70* working temp for the grease to not play into preload (as mentioned by Rick earlier in the thread.)

I suppose that if you find that the outer nut increases preload to any measureable extent, then in fact you may have sufficient wear on the spindle or the threads to warrant a closer look.

 

[e9999]

well, don't know anything much about setting bearings by feel.

I used a trusted trigger gauge, set it up according to the FSM, it's been a year and seveal thousand miles, and it seems nicely tight. No play at all. Maybe lucky?

 

[snowwolf]

I do agree with what your saying elmariachi, thats why I am posting on here, nothing seems to tally up with what i'm doing, I must admit I don't have a fish scale thing to measure the resistance, and no I don't have a makers workshop manual, I think it's far harder to come by this here in the UK thats why I have to rely on the forum, which I would be lost with this access on many occassions.
When I set the bearings I am torquing up the bearings with the lock nut to 45ftlbs plus turning the hub to clear the clearance of the grease then locking back to 45ft lbs, I then undo the lock nut, tighten up the nut to 10 ft lbs, the hubs is nice to turn and with no movement/slackness/wobble when moved, GREAT! perfect as you would say, install the lock washer (new) install the outer lock nut finger tight so you can carefully knock over the tab to secure the inner nut, tighten up the outer nut to 45ft lbs when I do that, the hub is hard to turn, now, I would assume that it should make no difference on how hard the hub turns after I have locked the outer nut, but it does, so would you say after locking up the outer nut, it should not feel any different on the force it takes to turn the hub, before and after tightening the outer nut, to me it should not alter.
When I mention about changing just the "outer" of the bearings in my last post, Here in the UK the outer bearing is the whole bearing which is on the wheel side of the hub, no one in their right mind would just change one part of a tapered bearing, they are matched parts, the only reason that I am changing the whole outer bearing, is because of the metal particles that have come off the bearing washer, that now has a wear grove worn in it, I have checked both bearings anyway, and they look perfect! no pitting, no blueing, no nothing, but will change then anyway because they are a fairly cheap item to replace.
Getting back to the thread problem on the lock nuts, that is why I mentioned it, cos when I lock the outer nut up, my bearings go tight, perhaps I do have a problem here, thats why I mentioned it, to see if anyone else has had that problem, or perhaps it's normal that the bearings go tight when the outer nut is torqued up, perhaps I should offer you a free plane ticket and a house to stay in, free of charge here in the UK for a week, (now thats an offer) to give me a hand and to see what I am experiencing, I'm sorry to harp on about this, but it's just defying logic.

 

[elmariachi]

When I set the bearings I am torquing up the bearings with the lock nut to 45ftlbs plus turning the hub to clear the clearance of the grease then locking back to 45ft lbs, I then undo the lock nut, tighten up the nut to 10 ft lbs, the hubs is nice to turn and with no movement/slackness/wobble when moved, GREAT! perfect as you would say, install the lock washer (new) install the outer lock nut finger tight so you can carefully knock over the tab to secure the inner nut, tighten up the outer nut to 45ft lbs when I do that, the hub is hard to turn,

I am unclear as to when you locking the washer, and I think the 10 ft. lbs is too much, so for your benefit not having the book, here is exactly what it says:

1. Install axle hub with disc to spindle. Install outer bearing. Install thrust washer.

FYI, you need to work the outer bearing in with both thumbs while keeping the hub up a bit, so that the bearing goes way back into the hub instead of hanging up near the outer edge.

2. Turn the hub right and left 2 or 3 times. Torque the nut again to 43 ft lbs.

3. Loosen the nut until it can be turned by hand. Then torque it to 48 INCH POUNDS (aka 4 foot pounds, not 10.)

4. Check preload. Ideal reading is between 6.4 and 12.6 lbf. (NOTE>> In the absence of a preload gauge, my advice to you is to get 10-12 pounds of some material and put it in a paint bucket with a handle. Run something like a steel rod horizontal through the wheel studs across the face of the rotor disc and hang your can on it. Keep messing with the outer nut until you can hook the can on the rod and cause it to pull the bring the wheel down ever so slightly. This is better than guessing, IMO. ***And FYI, the hub will not be able to "free-wheel" at those 10-12 ft. lb. settings. It will feel tight, such that if you grab with both hands and spin hard, it might turn 1/3 to 1/2 of a turn at best.

5. Install lock washer and nut. Torque outer nut to 47 ft. lbs. (not 43 or 45). Check preload again using same range. If its not within range, go back in and adjust it with the inner nut (not the outer nut.)

6. After range is set, secure lock washers by bending one tab in against inner nut and one tab out against outer nut.


You say you are installing a new race with that outer bearing. That will require that you remove all the grease from the inside of the hub to prevent brass shavings from getting in the clean grease. Therefore you will have to remove the inner hub seal (not reusable) and inner bearing. So once you have all that on the bench and the grease cleaned out, I would advise you to be certain that both races are seated all the way down into the hub against their seats. If the races are not properly seated at the right depth, that could have an impact on this problem you are chasing.

perhaps I should offer you a free plane ticket and a house to stay in, free of charge here in the UK for a week, (now thats an offer) to give me a hand and to see what I am experiencing, I'm sorry to harp on about this, but it's just defying logic.

I can tell you are frustrated, but that's what these threads are for (though I would like to fly over and help.) While you have the hub off of the spindle, I would recommend that you run both nuts up on the threads and see if they have any wobble. A slight bit is okay because they are thin but if they are sloppy, then you may have a spindle or nut issue as mentioned earlier.

 

[snowwolf]

Good morning elmariachi, thank you for the very informative work route I will follow, I will go buy one of them fish scale items from a tackle shop today, so when I do get it, I just hook it on one of the wheel studs and pull, when it starts to move at the given poundage, all should be ok.
Tomorrow the weather forecast here in london should be sunny, so will work on my truck, thats hoping that the big black cloud of the oil refinery which ignited yesterday, which is not to far away, causing a massive black cloud that blocks out the sun, I may have to get a lead light out
I will let you know how I get on, and thank you for all your help. regards Mick.

 

[elmariachi]

Good morning elmariachi, thank you for the very informative work route I will follow, I will go buy one of them fish scale items from a tackle shop today, so when I do get it, I just hook it on one of the wheel studs and pull, when it starts to move at the given poundage, all should be ok.
Tomorrow the weather forecast here in london should be sunny, so will work on my truck, thats hoping that the big black cloud of the oil refinery which ignited yesterday, which is not to far away, causing a massive black cloud that blocks out the sun, I may have to get a lead light out
I will let you know how I get on, and thank you for all your help. regards Mick.

Here is a link to a $15 fish scale that Tim Arbeiter (tarbe) brought over to my garage that seemed to match the readings we were getting with my Chatillion force gauge very closely.

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=57950&hvarTarget=search&cmCat=SearchResults

To properly measure preload, rotate a wheel stud to the very top of the wheel (12 o'clock position). Hook the scale on the wheel stud and then start pulling either right or left on a horizontal plane, increasing the pull very slowly until the wheel breaks loose and turns. Do this several times and you'll arrive at a consistent reading. My bet is that it will be here that you will see that your troubles have all been related to not getting the wheel tight enough using "touch."

Good luck.

 

[Rookie2]

To properly measure preload, rotate a wheel stud to the very top of the wheel (12 o'clock position). Hook the scale on the wheel stud and then start pulling either right or left on a horizontal plane, increasing the pull very slowly until the wheel breaks loose and turns.

One more clarification and I think we can consider this dead horse beaten. You need to maintain a 90 degree angle between the plane you're pulling relative to a straight line drawn from the stud you're pulling on and the axle shaft...the FSM clearly illustrates it for you. As the hub rotates around, if you maintain a horzontal pull line, the readings will become more and more inaccurate (readings will be higher than actual), as you are not maintaining a tangent force vector. Like Jim says, do it a couple of times and you'll get the drift.


Rookie2

 

[snowwolf]

I have bought a fish scale now, so will be doing it tomorrow weather permitting

 

[fj803fe]

You do it your way-I've put in my 0.02. All of mine are fine, by my way, WITH NEW BEARINGS AND RACES. When worn, I replace everything-those who know me, know that fact for certain. If it looks bad-even close to bad-its in the trash.

but yes 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch, IMO and my experience, does make a difference in the torque.

peace!

BS back at you. There is no way that the the 1/16th"-1/8th" represented by the star washer movement in the keyway could account for a properly set up assembly to go out of preload range and get "loose". I would like to see this proven. And frankly, unless the spindle threads or nut threads are stripped, I don't think that argument applies either.

I think all problems with hub and hub bearing setup can be attributed to one of three things:

1. Not following the FSM. This wasn't written out of Japanese boredom, it was written to ensure correct setup and is not subject to interpretation or deviation because you think you are smarter than the guys who designed it.

2. Using a $10 Wal-Mart fish gauge to set up a complex mechanical assembly.(Hell you just saved $750 by not taking it to the dealer, so what's $30 on eBay for the real thing?)

3. Not being able to recognize when bearings, races and or spindle surfaces are worn and in need replacement, thus reinstalling and trying to perform a setup on worn parts with loose tolerances using specs designed for new parts with new tolerances. The common practice of using new bearings with used races to save $6.00 and 10 minutes of pounding falls into this category.

FJ803fe speaks of "nuances not covered in the book." Snowwolf says he believes the bearings are "too tight" when he uses 45 ft. lbs. of torque. Too tight compared to what? When you say the setup "feels" too tight, yet it is set up EXACTLY like the book, I believe I'd be abandoning my "feel" meter. If you want to set it up once and be done with it, use new parts, the right tools and stop subjecting the FSM to interpretation.

That's my .02c.

 

[snowwolf]

when I jacked the drivers wheel off the ground, i could feel losseness in the bearing, so followed the proceedure above and all is fine now, took truck out just then and braking from 80mph a few times and the wheel wobble has gone, i will jack the other side up tomorrow and see if there is any looseness in that bearing.....Thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated. wishing you all a great Xmas