Front Wheel Bearing Too Tight ?
- Thread starter Beast II
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e9999 said:best purchase ever for the guy who rebuilds it for you too, eh?
Yea, that too.
bearings
So.... are you saying that when bearings get hot and under normal working temps, that the clearances get bigger? (so have more play) or smaller (so are more tighter)
Also you must have to take into consideration the wear on the threads of the preload nut and the locking nut, so when you torque up the preload nut, and then lock the locking nut unto it, if the thread is slightly worn or just a bit loose, then when you lock the lock nut to 45lbs the clearance in the bearing may well be to small, causing it to overheat? its just a theory I have had with mine, I follow the preload sequence but when I do the lock nut up to 45lbs the bearing is far to hard to turn, which can only mean that the bearings are to tight, if you can feel the hub is hardish to turn by hand, then it will only get tighter the warmer it gets, I may be wrong, but it's what I have come up against when doing wheel bearings on these trucks.
So.... are you saying that when bearings get hot and under normal working temps, that the clearances get bigger? (so have more play) or smaller (so are more tighter)
Also you must have to take into consideration the wear on the threads of the preload nut and the locking nut, so when you torque up the preload nut, and then lock the locking nut unto it, if the thread is slightly worn or just a bit loose, then when you lock the lock nut to 45lbs the clearance in the bearing may well be to small, causing it to overheat? its just a theory I have had with mine, I follow the preload sequence but when I do the lock nut up to 45lbs the bearing is far to hard to turn, which can only mean that the bearings are to tight, if you can feel the hub is hardish to turn by hand, then it will only get tighter the warmer it gets, I may be wrong, but it's what I have come up against when doing wheel bearings on these trucks.
snowwolf said:
There are several things wrong or left unsaid in your post (not to mention my pet peive on torque units), that it's difficult to be sure you are actually doing the procedure correctly. You do have the FSM (or Jim's post above) and have followed the procedure word for word?? Including tightening the lock nut (to set the bearing) and then loosening it and retightening to 48 "in"-lbs (not ft-lbs) before measuring the pre-load? I don't know... I guess since I've done it a couple of times, I just don't understand why it's not doing right for you guys. Maybe it's like the lift thing.. every cruiser is different
yup tried that sequence a few times, but it always feels the bearings are to tight, they should never be hard to turn after you lock the lock nut up, they seem fine until you do the second lock nut up, so you have to back off the inner nut and then re lock the outer and then see how it feels, its the only way it can be done on mine i'm sure.
snowwolf said:
The star/locking washer that goes between the two hub nuts has a tit on it that goes into the groove in the stub axle. It keeps the washer and inner nut from turning when you torque the outer nut.
If you don't use the washer or if that tit is gone, the inner nut will tighten along with the outer (to 47 ft lbs!) and you'll be waaaayyy tight.
gotta admit... there can't be too many sites -and folks- spending hours discussing the fine points of using fishscales and the intricacies of the fine points of tightening nuts...
We're in trouble...!
We're in trouble...!
does anybody honestly believe that the majority of techs out there at the Toy dealers go through this procedure when they fix your average mall cruiser for a soccer mom?
(I did it, in case you're wondering...)
(I did it, in case you're wondering...)
e9999 said:
Maybe not... but I don't know why they wouldn't, or at least something close to it. Once you've done it once, really it's relatively intuitive. Makes since to me. I think because it's more than two steps, people have made it out to be more difficult than it really is, and it's gotten a bad rap.
well, 99% of the owners out there will never see the inside of a repair. A poor adjustment on something like bearings will likely not lead to immediate failure. Most techs make more $$ if they finish the job faster. What's one to conclude...?
elmariachi said:
I call BS on that one... I have seen it too many times to count on both hands and feet.
How many threads does it take for the adjusting nut to go from 43 ft-lbs to ca. 4-6 ft-lbs????
How wide is the key on the spindle? The lock washer?
If your lock washer is at its upper limit of the spindle key (e.g. resting against the clockwise rest of the spindle key) when "locking" down the properly torqued adjusting and locking nuts-you have enough play for the entire adjusting nut/lock washer, lock nut to move from ~4-6 ft-lbs (a.k.a hand tight) to about 1 or 2 ft-lbs-resulting in a small amount of play noticeable at the hub unit, to a much greater amount of play noticeable on the outer limits of the radius (i.e. 35" tire-in my case).
So in short-though it is almost something overlooked and easily neglected-YES you can have the nuts "back off" from the "hand-tight torque-it doens't take much thread distance to greatly alter the torque of these nuts and thus the pre-load of the bearings.
I make sure to maintain the key of the lock washer at the counter-clockwise limit of the spindle key to the maximum extent possible during re-assembly to reduce that chance-and for intents and purposes-its helped maintain the pre-load on my bearings through quite a few rebuilds on quite a few rigs.
snowwolf said:
To add grease to the fire, literally, the newly packed bearings do not retain all of the grease within them, and moly/M1/lithium grease (I want to say break-down-though it is not technically correct) "okay!" break-down "I said it" resulting in a loosening of that "tight" feeling you get with newly packed bearings and a properly sequeced pre-load and torque.
There are some nuances in this process that the FSM does not necesarily cover-as is the case with many other technical procedures outlined within.
fj803fe said:
I've thought about this "slop" as being a possible source for some of these guys problems. But I don't (or didn't) buy it. It can't be more than a degree or two. Are you saying you've also had problems with loose bearings, and you attribute it to this extremely small amount of movement due to the difference in size of the star washer tab and spindle groove?
Rookie2 said:
I have noticed some loose movement after re-builds or brake jobs in the past, yes. And its been my experience that all of my above described situations add to the "loose" result.
The threads of the spindle are not by any means "tight" or are otherwise minute in relation to the width of the adjusting and lock nuts, thereby small degrees of rotation result in much larger reductions of torque (Which I guess would be independent of nut "width"). This compounded by inconsitencies in the "pack" achieved within the bearings andthe result of grease loss/"break-down" within the first couple 100 miles results in the said "loose" movement-but thats been my experience. And since implementing my "trick" above, I have not had those problems re-occur.
Coincidnce? Could be, but I just like to think I am one damn smart guy
:I had also noticed on one re-pack that the "tab" had sheared completely off of the lock washer-which absolutely baffled me as the bearings were in good shape, the washer's tab was pristine, and showed no sign of wear from the bearings. New washer, implement "trick" and all has been well for 20K now.
That happened to me when I rebuilt the knuckles using the orginal (chewed-up by somebody's chisel) nuts. The star washer tab sheared off when I was tightening the outer nut. Finding the tab afterwards was fun...
fj803fe said:
I just ordered some new outer bearings, which should arrive tomorrow, I also have som new bearing washers as the ones on there now, have worn a groove around them where the inner of the bearing has spun.
while I have them stripped down, I will check to see if there is any looseness in the bearing nut threads, as this would definitly cause the bearings to be set at the wrong clearance when you lock up the lock nut, even if you have 2 thou of freeplay in the nut thread, that would make the bearings tight when you lock up the luck nut.
while I have them stripped down, I will check to see if there is any looseness in the bearing nut threads, as this would definitly cause the bearings to be set at the wrong clearance when you lock up the lock nut, even if you have 2 thou of freeplay in the nut thread, that would make the bearings tight when you lock up the luck nut.
fj803fe said:
BS back at you. There is no way that the the 1/16th"-1/8th" represented by the star washer movement in the keyway could account for a properly set up assembly to go out of preload range and get "loose". I would like to see this proven. And frankly, unless the spindle threads or nut threads are stripped, I don't think that argument applies either.
I think all problems with hub and hub bearing setup can be attributed to one of three things:
1. Not following the FSM. This wasn't written out of Japanese boredom, it was written to ensure correct setup and is not subject to interpretation or deviation because you think you are smarter than the guys who designed it.
2. Using a $10 Wal-Mart fish gauge to set up a complex mechanical assembly.(Hell you just saved $750 by not taking it to the dealer, so what's $30 on eBay for the real thing?)
3. Not being able to recognize when bearings, races and or spindle surfaces are worn and in need replacement, thus reinstalling and trying to perform a setup on worn parts with loose tolerances using specs designed for new parts with new tolerances. The common practice of using new bearings with used races to save $6.00 and 10 minutes of pounding falls into this category.
FJ803fe speaks of "nuances not covered in the book." Snowwolf says he believes the bearings are "too tight" when he uses 45 ft. lbs. of torque. Too tight compared to what? When you say the setup "feels" too tight, yet it is set up EXACTLY like the book, I believe I'd be abandoning my "feel" meter. If you want to set it up once and be done with it, use new parts, the right tools and stop subjecting the FSM to interpretation.
That's my .02c.