Fine Lines

Discussion in 'Paint and Body' started by ryan greathouse, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    Doing some initial prepping for paint on the 80 series this last weekend. This is my first time doing body/paint work on a vehicle.

    Wanted to get some guidance on removing/filling the small stuff, such as paint scratches, basically where the metal is fine, but there are imperfections. For instance, my rig has a line where the fender flares meet the body (pictured below--I am going flares off). I was sanding it down with 150 and I am just not sure if that is the best way to go in knocking down the raised old paint/clearcoat. Then, on the filling/smoothing side what are you guys using on the small stuff? Should I use a filler, or just prime it with multiple coats and then block sand it?

    IMG_2215.jpg IMG_2214.jpg
     
  2. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    Think it really depends on how much you can "feel" the line once you have prepped the area. I am going through this adventure as well with my 60 (replacing rusty metal though) and my first thought would be if you cannot really feel the line, then a good primer/surfacer (aka high fill/build primer) should take care of those lines with a couple coats. That is as long as you let the coats flash properly.

    If they are deeper lines, then you really have two options;
    1. take the areas down to where you no longer feel the line, or
    2. take the lines down to where they are close and then do a skim coat of filler.
     
  3. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    Alright thanks that really helps. Ya, it is very noticeable by feel. I also looked into the 3m product for filling scratches so I may experiment with that to save time on sanding.
     
  4. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    What are you using to sand? After my experience last night, if you have a compressor I would highly recommend a DA sander to knock all that down quickly.
     
  5. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    I am just sanding by hand with a block. I do have a small compressor, but no sander for it. I have an orbital. I am hesitant to bust out a power sander on it because the flare lines are really a minor imperfection. If I start cutting away a lot of old paint or even primer all around the fenders that is going to make for a lot more work in layering in multiple coats of sandable primer, and smoothing the whole thing out again. Right?

    My plan is to knock down the ridges by hand, and then fill the lines with a scratch filler. Reviewers online say if fillers are applied correctly they last a long time. thoughts?
     
  6. NCFJ

    NCFJ Supporting Vendor

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    Check out this video. Use as much or as little of it as you choose.
    Bottom line on any paint work, be it on the body or a suspension component, prep is what makes the job.
    It is a laborious process.

     
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  7. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    wow, that video is a confidence killer. My body shop (that is working on Dad's 40 series--different project) told me I could sand existing paint with 320 and then spray direct over it...now I am second guessing everything. aye yay yay. short cuts never pan out so I guess im jumping in head first. Luckily she is very straight, save for the fender flare holes and lines, and a few deep scratches.
     
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  8. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    One thing to remember with that video is they are going for a show car finish. While we may all "want" that, the likelihood of that actually happening is pretty slim as these are our daily drivers. I have watched that video multiple times and the main thing that I take away is that you need to put in the prep work time. You "can" knock your original paint down with 240/320grit to a decent surface that new paint would be able to adhere too but know that may have it's own issues in and of itself.

    My buddy, who was a paint and body work guys for multiple years, basically told me that as a beginner you will ALWAYS make mistakes. However, knowing what those mistakes may be and choosing which ones you will more than likely make will help with you overall satisfaction of the finished product. Example would be: Do you strip the entire vehicle down to original primer/bare metal and re-prime all over again or do you just knockdown the original paint to a surface that will "probably" give good adhesion of the new paint. One will take a HELL of a lot more time than the other. And one will end up having a better life/longevity and look than the other.

    The question then becomes, what is the main purpose of the paint job?
    - Are you repainting to color match/panel match due to repairs?
    - Are you repainting to change color?
    - Are you repainting to go for a "show car" finish? Or something close there of?
    - Are you repainting simply due to a combination of the above?
    - After repaint, what will be the purpose/life of the paint and vehicle?

    These are questions that I developed in my mind when I started approaching this (and I am sure @NCFJ is shaking his head at me again, saying "what is this dude smoking!"). For me, BeBe is a daily driver, spends 99% of her life outside in the elements, can go MONTHS without a wash and her main purpose in to be a dirt dog hauling, mtbing, camping, offroad adventure rig. This means she will have scrapes, scratches, Nevada Pin Striping, etc. thus, she will never have that "New car" shine to her. So, with all that in mind I will likely take the time to prime my entire truck OVER the existing paint which I will knockdown with 80grit sandpaper to promote adhesion. From there I will go through the process of bringing the primer to a 320 or 400 grit status before I put my single-stage on. I will likely wetsand the primer with the 320/400 after hitting it with the da with 320/400 just to get a good consistent coat. I am currently working on filling in with body filler where needed to help have a decent body panel and then once all is said and done I will still cut and polish with my da polisher.

    Since I am using a "farm implement enamel" I do not expect this paint to have any serious depth of color or anything, rather it is a good protectant to help PREVENT more of what I have been fixing over the last few years.

    Sorry for the long post but don't feel discouraged, it is not an overly hard job (from what everyone keeps telling me) it is just incredibly time consumptive. Not something that a "nice" paint job can be knocked out in just a weekend.
     
  9. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    Oh on Youtube the other guy to watch is "The Gunman", he has some great tips and tutorials on there and is an industry professional in Australia.
     
  10. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    Thanks for the insight, I really appreciate it. That is a good description of my cruiser's duty as well; everything. Best I prime it too, who knows how the adhesion to the old paint will turn out. Priming it will also give me the opportunity to get familiar with the sprayer. Well, off to harbor freight for a bigger compressor and DA sander...
     
  11. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    @ryan greathouse Coupon out there for the "Self Vacuuming" DA for 19.99 if you look on hfqpdb.com
    Also, if you wait until Monday you will get a One-Day only 25% off coupon. Check the HF thread
     
  12. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    So I went and talked with the owner of the local paint supply place this afternoon after I got off work and here is what he told me (he has been doing this for 20yrs)

    - When using an enamel "implement" paint (like I plan to) I should not have to worry about using a primer sealer over whatever paint is currently on there
    - Caveat with that is that I NEED to scuff everything good with 240 or 320grit to ensure that it adheres well
    - Use DTM primer (Direct 2 metal) when I will be painting over patch panels and whatnot, this ensures I get a good bond for the primer to the metal. Again with this there should be no need for a Sealer coat over the primer before base
    - When shooting similar color to primer (grays, darker colors) there really is no need for more than a gallon of base single-stage color for our trucks, especially with the implement paint (which he says covers like a mad dog but still flows like a multi-coat base/clear setup).

    Other than that he said, take your time, prep the entire vehicle, then go through and prep again and when you think you have prepped enough, give it one last go just to make sure.

    And cost estimate for you... He sold me a quart of high build/surfacer primer for the body work I am doing, plus a quart of activator and 8oz of reducer of what he said is "middle of the road" stuff for ~$60. He then said, the enamel implement paint would run me around ~$60/gallon plus if I need activator or reducer for that.
     
  13. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    well this has been fun but I made one crucial error in my planning: the compressor. This will bring the price up too much for me, I was misunderstood as far as the specs on this, the most important tool for the job. I am going to ask the body shop what they will charge to prime and paint it only, if I bring it in completely ready, but I doubt that is even an option, or possible for that matter unless I barrow a trailer (sadly, my neighbor the car-hauler/mechanic moved to texas--wha wha wha whaaaaa. Oh but the new single mom that moved in makes soap, what a trade off).

    The $500-600 I budgeted will likely go towards front locking Aisin hubs...
     
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  14. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    Think you can RENT good sized compressors from places like America Rents, Home Dept, etc. Yeah the compressor is a necessity. I am hoping that mine is sufficient, old 30gallon craftsman that my buddy gave me. I will find out with the primer soon. Other option you could ask the shop about, since you know them, is to see if they will let you rent the booth. That way you have adequate location, basically you bring your paint and gun and do all the work (or maybe they let you use their nice guns!).
     
  15. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    Ya, I though of renting. I am also looking into LVLP to apply coatings. Actually doesnt sound too bad, HVLP gets all the praise but sounds like LVLP has its place too. Can get by with a MUCH more reasonable compressor. ref to link:" Inotherwords, LVLP Guns are amazingly professional, spray an amazing finish while using little air, have the highest material savings of all guns (even better than HVLP gun) and provide good control. The only real down side to LVLP is its slight reduction in spraying speed"

    FYI
    sherwin williams has a MIL-spec aerospace paint also, I just inquired about pricing
     
  16. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    Ok, SW^^^ does not sell to the public, they gave me the number to Alliance Coatings down in El Cajon. They are a bit cheaper (and USA). Just talked to Brian (very helpful) and a gallon kit in Gloss is about $300, $240 for flat. This is a military grade aerospace paint, very durable, tested to high standards.

    This paint would work fine with LVLP. A color match is $75, but if you can get the color code (you want) to meet federal standards (codes) then you can save the $75. Basically you go to a body shop and have them get out the fed standard chart and try and match. Kind of confusing, but will save you some money if you can figure out your color based on the federal coding system.
     
  17. ryan greathouse

    ryan greathouse

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    So I have made some progress in the prep department, and am getting close to paint. I am still unsure of whether or not to prime the whole thing, or just rattle can over the fender flare work. I have silver dollar sized bare metal in a few spots, and a couple of small patches of bondo (< 3" diameter). The existing paint is not cracking or flaking off. The body shop said I could "probably" just paint over the old stuff, and sounds like if the paint is not peeling/flaking etc it is ok to paint over. So my plan is to apply self etching primer over the metal, then regular primer over those spots, then prep more and paint. Thoughts? thx

    IMG_2285.jpeg
     
  18. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    Sounds like a good plan to me. That entire quarter panel that I did, I used maybe 1/3 of a 20oz hvlp cup once I had mixed everything and had thrown down 3 1/2 coats. I say 3 1/2 because I read you are supposed to throw a light coat of the primer over the sections that were bare primered and/or bondod, THEN do a full coat over the panel when doing paint. So I applied the same principle to the bondod areas and covered the "new" areas first, let that flash then did the entire panel. This all took me about 45ish minutes, allowing each coat to flash enough that it was no longer glossy or tacky. Not sure how proper that is but looks fine to me now. There was a lot more work done to my passenger side as a whole so I am figuring that is where the majority of my primer will be used.
     
  19. NCFJ

    NCFJ Supporting Vendor

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    A word on primer. I'd use it, even over sanded old paint. The idea is to give the best possible adhesion of the color coat you possibly can. The primers that are available today are quite a bit better than that was available 20 plus years ago.

    I used 2K primer on the truck I am currently painting. When done priming out the body I had about a half a cup of primer left. I dumped it in my wheel barrow and spread it all around. This is a rusty wheel barrow. A few weeks later I mixed 63-80 lb bags of concrete mix with extra stone in that wheel barrow. Thats 5040 lbs of concrete mix alone. It scratched the hell out of that primer but DID NOT REMOVE IT IN CHUNKS OR SHEETS! Works for me :)
     
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  20. gregnash

    gregnash Anal Retentive Analyst SILVER Star

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    Good call Stan!
     
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