Brakes = BAD to WORSE

[weejub]

Well they got to the point today that I am fearful of driving it. I will depress all the way to the floor and its slows, but never locks up - almost like the weakest ABS in the world. Takes three-five car lengths to stop going 30 mph.

I also heard a noise from the area that is around the master cylinder. Its kind-of a humming/grinding noise when brakes are fully depressed - like it is suffering while under pressure - not from the wheel, but engine compartment.

Last symptom is that at times, it has pulled to the left pretty hard while breaking - seems to be that way only some of the time.

In reviewing page BR-2 of the FSM under "troubleshooting" I think the issue falls under the "spongy pedal" classification. This leads me to believe I have one of the following issues:

• Leak somewhere.
• Air in the system.
• Bad wheel cylinder.
• Maser cylinder is faulty.

Wheel cylinder is also under "Brakes Pull." So that may be a good place to start.

The previous owner said he just replaced the MC - it is all shiny black and new looking - could have been rebuilt and now bad.

He did state the brake lines were not replaced with the lift about 1.5 years ago. I am going to get out and check all the soft lines tomorrow AM.

I would love to go back with some Stainless Steel extended lines if I do find a leak there.

The kicker on all this was I was planning on taking it to Camp Bartle near Truman Lake for scouts with my son on Monday! Bad timing!

Questions:

• Any ideas on were to find stainless steel break lines that work for a 62 locally?
• Any tips/suggestions on what to look for given the symptoms?
• Any ideas on who may be able to trouble shoot this if I can't get in for a service inspection?

Thanks!

 

[CrowleyFJ40]

Thompkins industries can do SS lines in a pinch. A liitle pricy bit not too bad.

If you have a leak it should be pretty obvious, look for the wet area. First indicator would be low fluid in master. Check the hard lines visually for wet areas. Check each wheel and look for leaks. You can probably see the calipers by just getting under the front end but you'll have to pull the tires and drums in rear to check wheel cylinders. A wheel cylinder is the most likely culprit for the leak.

Your FSM has a test for checking booster operation. The noise under the hood would make me think possibly booster. If you find no leaks and the booster tests good then it's probably your master.

 

[weejub]

Thanks, Colin - great advice.

My brake fluid level has gone down SLIGHTLY since January (from just below full to just above halfway), but I haven't had any signs of leakage on the driveway, etc.

I checked all the brake lines I could find and found no evidence of leakage.

I did the "Operation Test of Brake Booster" and I think the issue is the brake pedal continues on to the floor AFTER the first part where you pump the breaks while the car is off and then hold it and start the vehicle.

Everything is pointing to the Master Cylinder or the booster, I guess.

The weird thing is the brakes feel fine when you first apply, and then as you continue to depress, the final point were you come to a stop, the pedal just seems to keep going down and the braking seems to just not be as tough as it used to be.

BTW - A new list-priced booster for the 62 from Toyota is $1180!

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

if the pedal is not holding pressure start at the top and work down..
re-bleed the master first..
then honestly i'd seperate out a section of the brakes.. you can use a brake bleeder screw to plug one half of the master and start on the fronts.. see if one of your calipers is frozen and not working by first getting pedal by bleeding master. then jack up front have someone hit brakes while you spin a wheel..
if fronts are good move to back. pull the drums first to see if you are leaking out of a cylinder. or a rear wheel bearing seal went south.
holler if you need parts. i have 2 calipers sitting here and a master.
if you get stumped call.. will pm my #

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

you probably still have the LSPV in the back.. that probably wasn't adjusted when the PO put the lift on as well.. move that bar way up to the top.. I remove em i think they're junk but that's me..
also has me thinking po didn't bleed the brakes correctly which would cause issues.. there's also a bleeder on the LSPV that was probably overlooked. To bypass that thing i'll have to discuss that in detail later. and then you would probably need a proportioning valve aftermarket like what I use.. see my picture on my thread on reviving the wagon.

 

[CrowleyFJ40]

Any luck bleeding the system like Erik suggested?

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

LSPV pictures from 2 different manual.. I had one sitting here but i'm gonna guess i tossed it after watching an episode of hoarders.. that show helps me clean the garage.

 

[weejub]

Any luck bleeding the system like Erik suggested?

Not yet. Erik's most recent pic, above helps a lot too! Never done this, so it feels a little foreign. I've printed all the above off and going out to take a look now! JB

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

here's the brake bleeder I use a LOT in the garage
Lisle 19200 Brake Bleeding Kit
i've purchased this thing twice.. otherwise a hose and a small jar do the same thing..

 

[weejub]

LSPV pictures from 2 different manual.. I had one sitting here but i'm gonna guess i tossed it after watching an episode of hoarders.. that show helps me clean the garage.

Here are some pics I took from underneath.

I may have a leak on one of the lines - thought it was a diff breather, at first, but . . looks like a break line?? I'm such a newb

 

[weejub]

I was able to open both rear bleed valves - but the stupid cheapo kit I bought for bleeding has a hose that is too small to go over the fitting. I didn't try to hard to find the "good kit" Erik suggested as its Sunday PM and my options are getting smaller.

I'm gonna just go look for a bit of hose. The other hose I have is too small.

I got the wife to watch a video on how to do the pedal, and had coaching from Erik - look out!

Took a pic of a possible problem area, too - at the rear T for the breaks - looks like I have a leak - - is that a Class 1 leak, Colin?

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

what's leaking there is the breather for your diff.. it's pressurizing your rear axle cause it's clogged.. simple to just pull up on the oily hose, take it inside and clean it up real well or replace it with a hose with a fuel filter on the end. only remove the hose that's going STRAIGHT UP.. not the others.. those are brakes.

you posted a picture of your LSPV bleeder there as well..
GOod job you can do this!

at the top of that hose is a metal cap that's pressed on like a bottle cap.. under that is a spring and a detent ball.. if you don't want to remove the hose.. take off the breather on the top that's clogged and install a fuel filter to breath thru for now.

what's happening is your diff is getting warm and cool and that allows the pressure to vent. if it can't vent out the breather it'll vent other areas like your axle seals. i sometimes pop filler plugs and hear a whoosh cause the breather is clogged..

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

you still haven't mentioned if you have pedal yet? Start on the furthest away from the master and move on.. you can build a custom bench bleeder with 10mm fittings of brake line. get a longer piece and bend it in a similar shape that i've shown here.. thread it into the master and the other end into the resevoir.. once there are no more bubbles your master will be bench bled. you can get a long piece and cut it in half.. Most of us have spares lying in the box for such an occassion..
If you want to isolate a half of the brakes use a bleeder from the rear or another truck such as pictured in the second picture. thread that into a half of the master to isolate a half and see if you can get pedal.. if your still not getting pedal then you have a bad master..

and no that's not the kitchen sink.. it's the sink in the garage! Jenn would probably not let me keep brake parts in the kitchen sink!

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

also see if you can find a 10mm flare wrench not just the standard open end.. makes a HUGE difference in not rounding off the fittings. some of the aftermarket are 11mm heads so you might need 2 different wrenches, most have a 10/12 mm combo and the second will probably have an 11/13 combo.

 

[weejub]

all fittings are loose and we are heading to sears to get the right bleeder kit . . . manual has us doing the LPV last, so we will hit it after the wheel's. Sorry this is so newbish, cause I know this is like changing the channel for a lot of people

 

[weejub]

My 10mm box is perfect for the bleeder valves.

I'll clean the breather hose.

Still bleeding when I get back from Sears. Haven't done anything yet. I did test the front end by jacking up and spinning the wheels. . .

Thanks!

 

[weejub]

Well - - bled all four wheel valves and the LSP. I noticed that with the LSP, the fluid was light for a few inches and then turned dark like dark coffee. Didn't see that in the other lines.

Neighbor and I probably pumped through 6+ cycles per valve - didn't seem to get that much stuff out. By volume, we removed fluid from the tip-top of the full line down to just below bottom three times out of the 5 valves (about 3/4ths the reservoir).

I noticed some dark gunk in the filter portion of the little cup in the master cylinder reservoir when I first opened her up. Cleaned that out.

I also just cleaned up the diff breather hose and put it back on. Got it to where I could blow air out of it . . probably the problem to begin with as maybe it is letting out TOO MUCH?

Just took her out for a spin and didn't notice any real difference.

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

when you jacked up a wheel and hit the brakes did they stop? Do you have pedal or is it still spongy? if it's still going to the floor like you said.

 

[weejub]

I didn't bleed the master first - the fittings were so tight - almost to the point of rounding, so I didn't want to go there tonight. I bypassed in an effort to really just get to the LSP.

I honestly only get about half of the below, but I get the feeling that the master is the issue. It sounds like I really need to test more to know for sure.

I think I mentioned I also hear a groaning sound when the pedal is nearly to the floor as you try to come to the last part of the stop.

you still haven't mentioned if you have pedal yet? Start on the furthest away from the master and move on.. you can build a custom bench bleeder with 10mm fittings of brake line. get a longer piece and bend it in a similar shape that i've shown here.. thread it into the master and the other end into the resevoir.. once there are no more bubbles your master will be bench bled. you can get a long piece and cut it in half.. Most of us have spares lying in the box for such an occassion..
If you want to isolate a half of the brakes use a bleeder from the rear or another truck such as pictured in the second picture. thread that into a half of the master to isolate a half and see if you can get pedal.. if your still not getting pedal then you have a bad master..

and no that's not the kitchen sink.. it's the sink in the garage! Jenn would probably not let me keep brake parts in the kitchen sink!

I cleaned the diff breather hose with simple green a bit outside, and then finished with dove in the kitchen sink . . .wife wasn't real happy.

Thanks for all your help Erik and Colin! I'm going to have to deal with phase 2 on my return from Camp Bartle.

 

[weejub]

when you jacked up a wheel and hit the brakes did they stop? Do you have pedal or is it still spongy? if it's still going to the floor like you said.

Yes the brakes did stop the wheels when I jacked up the front.

Its still spongy - not a lot different than before. Still have to take it to the floor to do a really fast stop and it still gives and won't come close to locking wheels at that point. Still making the hissing/groaning noise (like a tire leak, wife says) in the front.