Block and head corrosion help

[JacobsBarn80]

Hey guys,

The fool before me looks like they ran tap water instead of coolant.....

Just took the head off to replace the head gasket and found the corrosion below. Talking to a machine shop they recommended replacing or repairing the head due to it being near the firing ring.

I started cleaning the block and found the following around pistion 1... idk how this even happens, looks like they just beat it with a hammer. That being said im at a bit of a cross roads and not sure what to do, not sure if it can be fixed or if its totally screwed... keen to hear some opinions!

 

[TheBussman]

that part of the head does look pretty bad, if it was mine i would grind it out, weld it up and then have it milled. i can't see exactly whats going on with the block in the picture but i suspect some water was hanging out in that spot and rusted the bock a bit there. could most likely be milled away if your strip down the rest of the block. then you can dip the block in acid to get the rest of that rust out of the water jackets.

 

[jpoole]

The head is aluminum, the block is iron so the red corrosion is from the block. You are right that they either ran water or ran coolant so long that the corrosion inhibitors stopped doing their thing. You'll need to clean the cooling system out to some extent but how far you take that and how you go about it is up to you. The bigger concern may be the possibility of galvanic corrosion damage to sealing surfaces that could lead to leaks and blockage of coolant passages that can make the system less efficient.

My 80 had copious amounts of red oxidation in the cooling system along with crud/sludge from some type of stop-leak products and/or mixed coolant types when I bought it. Interior of cooling passages looked similar to what you have. I ran a number of flushes including letting a vinegar solution sit in the system for a period of time. I never fully removed the red oxide layer and for years after the flushes I would still have a decent amount of red coating the inside/bottom of my overflow tank during my annual coolant change and overflow tank cleanout. For the first few years I regularly had to unclog the passages in the radiator cap. For the last 4 or 5 years rust coming out of the overflow tank has been minimal and the cap hasn't clogged in a long time.

My 80 cools fine and has over 100k miles on it since I purchased it so while I think you should do some cleaning I wouldn't assume that the corrosion indicates any certain issues beyond the need to clean things up.

Regarding the void circled on the head, are y'all thinking that is from corrosion/erosion or does it look like it may have been a casting defect at time of manufacture? If you can find someone willing to try a repair where material is added, then resurfaced, I may consider that based on their competence and confidence level with the repair. Personally I'd lean towards finding a new or used head without a void like that as I think a repair in that location will be pretty difficult unless performed by someone who really knows what they are doing. I would want to complete this job with the goal of not repeating it again any time soon and a repair of that void feels like a gamble to me.

 

[JacobsBarn80]

The head is aluminum, the block is iron so the red corrosion is from the block. You are right that they either ran water or ran coolant so long that the corrosion inhibitors stopped doing their thing. You'll need to clean the cooling system out to some extent but how far you take that and how you go about it is up to you. The bigger concern may be the possibility of galvanic corrosion damage to sealing surfaces that could lead to leaks and blockage of coolant passages that can make the system less efficient.

My 80 had copious amounts of red oxidation in the cooling system along with crud/sludge from some type of stop-leak products and/or mixed coolant types when I bought it. Interior of cooling passages looked similar to what you have. I ran a number of flushes including letting a vinegar solution sit in the system for a period of time. I never fully removed the red oxide layer and for years after the flushes I would still have a decent amount of red coating the inside/bottom of my overflow tank during my annual coolant change and overflow tank cleanout. For the first few years I regularly had to unclog the passages in the radiator cap. For the last 4 or 5 years rust coming out of the overflow tank has been minimal and the cap hasn't clogged in a long time.

My 80 cools fine and has over 100k miles on it since I purchased it so while I think you should do some cleaning I wouldn't assume that the corrosion indicates any certain issues beyond the need to clean things up.

Regarding the void circled on the head, are y'all thinking that is from corrosion/erosion or does it look like it may have been a casting defect at time of manufacture? If you can find someone willing to try a repair where material is added, then resurfaced, I may consider that based on their competence and confidence level with the repair. Personally I'd lean towards finding a new or used head without a void like that as I think a repair in that location will be pretty difficult unless performed by someone who really knows what they are doing. I would want to complete this job with the goal of not repeating it again any time soon and a repair of that void feels like a gamble to me.

I agree it's think i might be best with a new head. I have also done multiple flushes so most of the red sludge is gone now so im not super concerned with that now... my eyes were glued to the temp guage for a long time haha

I was really hoping that block could stay in the car but its looking like it needs to be removed and machined to get rid of the imperfection on the top of the sleeve.

Thanks for our input!

 

[JacobsBarn80]

that part of the head does look pretty bad, if it was mine i would grind it out, weld it up and then have it milled. i can't see exactly whats going on with the block in the picture but i suspect some water was hanging out in that spot and rusted the bock a bit there. could most likely be milled away if your strip down the rest of the block. then you can dip the block in acid to get the rest of that rust out of the water jackets.

That would make sense, I was hoping I could avoid removing the block but oh well!

 

[Marvelicious]

If you can find someone experienced with that sort of weld repair, and you can do it for a better price than you can get a new head, I wouldn't hesitate. Guys who build drag racing engines don't bat an eye at that sort of thing, but they have the tools and the knowhow. I'd price both options and go with the cheaper.

 

[LongDuck]

Guys who go drag racing probably don't drive their drag cars out into the middle of nowhere, though. It may be a pain, but that head erosion so close to the pressure ring on the Head Gasket would have me always second guessing if it's gonna hold. To me, a new head is cheap insurance because stuff like that would keep me awake at night - but not everybody's like that.

This! The stuff of my nightmares:

 

[jpoole]

Regarding your block, I can't tell for sure how bad the pitting is from the photos. My '97 1FZFE had similar markings that were initially concerning but that looked way better with minimal cleanup. I decided to run the block after cleanup and did the HG work with the engine installed. In that case I've had no issues in >100k miles so I feel like I rolled the dice and won. You could easily clean the block up a bit and then take new photos which may make it easier to tell how deep some of those marks are.

Ultimately your tolerance for risk vs. your tolerance to spend the time/$$ to "make things right" will have to be assessed on your end.

There are cases where I've intentionally cut corners to save time and $$ or simply because I sometimes enjoy the challenge of seeing if I can make things work and there are other cases where I've spent what it took to make things as "right" as I could. I've rarely regretted either approach but I've occasionally regretted both, meaning sometimes I've cut corners and lost and other times I've spent the time and $$ but ran into other issues that torpedoed the project. I do regret the failures that follow lots of time/$$ invested more which is why I'm not scared to try the less involved fix if I think it has a solid chance of working at a greatly reduced time or $$ outlay.

Your also at the point where you need to assess the overall condition of the 80 and what you want to do with it as you also compare options for addressing the engine issues. Body rust, failing paint, the desire for a newer model and other details may also be important factors in which path you should take with the engine.

 

[Marvelicious]

Guys who go drag racing probably don't drive their drag cars out into the middle of nowhere, though. It may be a pain, but that head erosion so close to the pressure ring on the Head Gasket would have me always second guessing if it's gonna hold. To me, a new head is cheap insurance because stuff like that would keep me awake at night - but not everybody's like that.

This! The stuff of my nightmares:View attachment 4010512

No, they don't drive into the middle of nowhere, but they do drop staggering amounts of cash on their builds and run cylinder pressures that are far beyond what a 1fz will see. If it weren't a valid repair, they wouldn't do it. Welding an aluminum head is really not a big deal.

 

[aztoyman]

I've TIG welded 22RE heads that looked like that in the water ports around the 4 exhaust valves. Then had it surfaced. Two of those engines went over 450K miles. BUT.......if the shop charges close to the cost of a new head, I would put the new one on.

I use phosphoric acid to get the rust out of my cast iron blocks and heads. It will not damage the iron like some acids will. It will damage water pump seals so I do it before I put new pumps on or while the block is bare. I have done it without issues on assembled engines but they were Flathead Fords from the 50's. Everything is iron and pretty basic.

It may attack modern seals and gaskets so I'd only do it if it was a bare block in your case. The water jackets look new after. My machine shops were always blown away at how clean my blocks were BEFORE I brought them in for work.

Good luck with it. I hope it all goes well for you.

 

[JacobsBarn80]

Bit of an update:

Cost of new head vs fixing was similar so just going to get a new one from etp engine parts as they seem to have good reviews. With that will be some mace racing valves.

For the block in need up needing to pull it. Will need to be decked and over sized pistons installed as there is some corrosion in the cylinder. Ill be getting new seals, bearings, pistons, rings and already has new oem timing chain. Clutch will be done too.

Also got an endurotech VRS kit and durapro head bolts. Not sure if anyone has had experience with them?

Anyway its my first engine rebuild so hope it goes well.

 

[JacobsBarn80]

Regarding your block, I can't tell for sure how bad the pitting is from the photos. My '97 1FZFE had similar markings that were initially concerning but that looked way better with minimal cleanup. I decided to run the block after cleanup and did the HG work with the engine installed. In that case I've had no issues in >100k miles so I feel like I rolled the dice and won. You could easily clean the block up a bit and then take new photos which may make it easier to tell how deep some of those marks are.

Ultimately your tolerance for risk vs. your tolerance to spend the time/$$ to "make things right" will have to be assessed on your end.

There are cases where I've intentionally cut corners to save time and $$ or simply because I sometimes enjoy the challenge of seeing if I can make things work and there are other cases where I've spent what it took to make things as "right" as I could. I've rarely regretted either approach but I've occasionally regretted both, meaning sometimes I've cut corners and lost and other times I've spent the time and $$ but ran into other issues that torpedoed the project. I do regret the failures that follow lots of time/$$ invested more which is why I'm not scared to try the less involved fix if I think it has a solid chance of working at a greatly reduced time or $$ outlay.

Your also at the point where you need to assess the overall condition of the 80 and what you want to do with it as you also compare options for addressing the engine issues. Body rust, failing paint, the desire for a newer model and other details may also be important factors in which path you should take with the engine.

Great insight thank you!

Ive already done the body rust a rough paint job, lots of other things to fix but hitting the sunk cost fallacy hard haha im hoping this will keep her reliable for a bit longer. I know the front diff probably needs replacing too.... list always growing but new cars are way to expensive at the moment!!!

 

[ajordan1975]

the block looks pretty common to me..... the head, i'd find a new one.

 

[jpoole]

new cars are way to expensive at the moment

Yeah, the high prices to purchase and maintain newer options does justify a decent level of spend on an older rig like an 80 in my opinion. As long as we can get critical parts and fuel prices stay low the relative ease to service these earlier rigs and their durability makes them pretty compelling options for long-term ownership in my opinion. After 10 years with my 80 as my primary vehicle my plan to keep running it indefinitely remains unchanged and if the engine should need it I'd replace/rebuild it myself as you are doing.

I do have a suggestion for your rebuild process which is to take a lot of photos and to share updates and questions here through the process. This will slow your work down and may seem like a distraction but the photos could prove a critical reference. Posting and asking questions here adds some additional oversight to the project and folks on the forum may notice issues or remind you of critical steps, etc. I'd consider finding an old digital camera and a few memory cards that you can use without worrying about getting your phone dirty. An older digital camera can be set to take smaller resolution images pretty easily which can then make uploading them to the forum easier and you can keep that old phone next to your workspace and ready to go.

A few of my earlier projects and engine rebuilds failed due to a single small mistake. With so many details to attend to it can be easy to focus on the larger items and get them right only to miss something small that isn't clearly mentioned in the manual or front of mind. Having an engine fail soon after a weeks or months long rebuild process because of a relatively minor oversight is terrible and a bad way to learn critical lessons.

Seems like folks have good luck building the 1FZ and you should enjoy many years of service from this one once you are done

 

[JacobsBarn80]

Yeah, the high prices to purchase and maintain newer options does justify a decent level of spend on an older rig like an 80 in my opinion. As long as we can get critical parts and fuel prices stay low the relative ease to service these earlier rigs and their durability makes them pretty compelling options for long-term ownership in my opinion. After 10 years with my 80 as my primary vehicle my plan to keep running it indefinitely remains unchanged and if the engine should need it I'd replace/rebuild it myself as you are doing.

I do have a suggestion for your rebuild process which is to take a lot of photos and to share updates and questions here through the process. This will slow your work down and may seem like a distraction but the photos could prove a critical reference. Posting and asking questions here adds some additional oversight to the project and folks on the forum may notice issues or remind you of critical steps, etc. I'd consider finding an old digital camera and a few memory cards that you can use without worrying about getting your phone dirty. An older digital camera can be set to take smaller resolution images pretty easily which can then make uploading them to the forum easier and you can keep that old phone next to your workspace and ready to go.

A few of my earlier projects and engine rebuilds failed due to a single small mistake. With so many details to attend to it can be easy to focus on the larger items and get them right only to miss something small that isn't clearly mentioned in the manual or front of mind. Having an engine fail soon after a weeks or months long rebuild process because of a relatively minor oversight is terrible and a bad way to learn critical lessons.

Seems like folks have good luck building the 1FZ and you should enjoy many years of service from this one once you are done

Legend, ill make a new thread when I start the rebuild. Wish I took some more photos of it coming out but ill post what I can of the rebuild itself!