best way to seat rings on rebuilt 1HZ-T?

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DamoPeru

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gday all,

For what is my third 1HZ rebuild (now being rebuilt to 1HZ-T factory specs by a Toyota dealer), I am determined to seat the rings perfectly on this motor. So the plan is, after only a couple of minutes of initial run time to check for leaks, I'll be taking it to a dynamometer for a half day or day if necessary to seat the rings under the 'correct' load.

So I am hoping someone here has an educated guess or knowledge on what gear, rpm, Nm etc. i should run the 1HZ at over the period.

The weak consensus from what I have read is 70-80% of the load rating for a particular gear for the first few hours at least. I would also imagine going the lower side of the end figure by 10% for the first hour and then stepping it up, maybe changing the rpm every 5 to 15 minutes as well, then there's the matter of whether i shut it down a few times or just push on through without stopping... but yeah I'm here to hear from anyone who actually knows what they're talking about, as I've only read about it.

Any advice will be well appreciated.

Cheers,
 
Toyoyta use a special running in oil for new engines. It eliminates the running in process. Not sure if the dealer stocks it.
 
Yep I'll be using that running in oil, I had it brought in. the sort of info I'm after would be like the dyno instructions on the second page in the document linked below (for big diesels I think), as I believe the first few minutes and hours are critical to correct seating

edit: sorry, i attached the wrong link
http://www.dieselduck.info/machine/01 prime movers/1999 engine rebuild start up.pdf

I know there are many conflicting opinions on how to run in a diesel, but my current train of thought on what I want to do is fairly well summed up by this page, and i'll definitely be doing it on a dynamometer

http://www.prlog.org/12130289-diesel-engine-break-in-after-rebuild.html
 
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I am interested in opinions too. The rings hold for 200.000km or sometimes much more. It is hard for me to see what a few hours of running in the beginning should do, with perfect rings and perfect cylinders. It's not that they have to be ground down to match each other, is it? If the material was so soft that a few hours of running would change their shape, they'd never hold up for so many miles. So what is 'seating the rings' really?
 
from what i've read, and what i believe to be logical out of all the varied opinions, is that a bad start (from either nursing that doesn't put enough pressure on the ring to expand them into the cyclinder wall, or from over exertion creating to much heat) can get smooth glazing deposits going on the cyclinder wall from burnt oil that doesn't allow the rings to wear out a proper seal.

this page explains it ok, but its a bit long so i'll paste just the relevant bit here

http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getitems.php3?Breaking in a Diesel Engine

"Heat is important to assist wear for break-in but too much can cause major problems. This is the reason we should not subject the engine to significant loading for the first 1000 miles of its operation. Loading heavily will introduce more fuel to the cylinder, and will add significant amounts of heat and pressure to the cylinder components. Couple that scenario with new rings on a freshly honed cylinder wall and we can only imagine the amount of friction and heat being produced and absorbed by the rings. Furthermore, the engine oil, lubricating the cylinder walls, will flash burn when it contacts the very hot rings. The burned oil will leave a hard, enamel like residue on the cylinder wall, commonly known as oil glazing. When the rings are permitted to operate under such high temperatures, oil glazing of the cylinder can happen very quickly. Once this glaze builds up, the only repair is a labor-intensive process that requires disassembling the engine and re-honing the effected cylinders. Oil glazing is a problem because it is typically not distributed evenly in the cylinder, and the spaces that exist between the ring and cylinder wall are either still there or new larger ones are created. Oil glazing is typically thicker towards the top of the cylinder and it builds up in the areas where heating is the greatest. The glaze has very smooth and friction free properties that do not allow it to be scraped away by the rings. This inhibits further metal-to-metal wear between the cylinder wall and rings, preventing further mating of ring and cylinder. Thus, those small gaps between ring and cylinder surface will never seal. These spaces will then allow pressurized gasses and unburned fuel to escape into the crankcase, while allowing oil from the crankcase to enter the cylinder above the top compression ring.

Well why not run the engine at idle or under no load? This is bad too. It can create a similar condition to glazing. The rings need to expand a little during this initial break-in period, just not so much that they overheat and flash the engine oil. The engine needs to be moderately loaded in order to break in correctly. Running the engine under very light or no load prevents the oil film placed on the cylinder wall from being scraped away by the expanding compression rings. The rings will instead “hydroplane” or ride over the deposited oil film, allowing it to be exposed to the cylinder combustion. The oil film will then partially burn on the cylinder leaving a residue that will build up and oxidize over time. Eventually this leaves a hard deposit on the cylinder wall that is very similar to the glaze left from flash burning. My caution to those just running the engine as a normal daily driver (without some loading) and especially those who love to idle their vehicles, expect some VERY extended break-in periods (up to 30,000 miles on one I know of). Expect oil consumption forever due to oil glazing. The rings never really seat well if they cannot expand from the dynamics and heat that a load produces. Expect poor mileage due to the passing of compression and combustion gasses around the compression rings. Additionally, expect to see increased bearing wear and engine wear due to the fuel passing the rings diluting the engine oil.

Thus, we can see that heavy loading and light loading can cause some major problems. Moderate loading is the key to a proper break in for the first 1000 miles. It permits the loose fitting piston rings to expand into the cylinder walls allowing them to perform double duty: First, scraping oil off the cylinder wall, and second, to create friction that will promote wearing the two surfaces to each other’s proportions. Furthermore, moderate loading will allow the rings to get hot but not to the point where it will flash the lubricating oil supplied to the cylinder walls."
 
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I dont think running in periods are as vital as it once was and I dont think these engines even had a running in schedule when new. Engines are machined to a higher standard and the crosshatching is much finer. There are so many opinions about running in , I didnt even bother much with it when I had ,my 1HZ rebuilt. The main thing is too watch the temps. Mine ran fairly warm for 2-3 hours. I varied the rpm up to about 80% in all the gears, a bit the same as your link but with no heavy trailers.
It was getting good HP figures on the dyno 30000klms later.
 
I dont think running in periods are as vital as it once was

I agree in terms of the whole motor, but it seems that the modern fine crosshatching on shop rebuilds might make the window for seating rings without glazing even smaller.

When I pulled apart mine with only 2K on it, it had signs of glazing, hence my desire to educate myself on the subject. On previous rebuilds I had just gone with what I was told (to take it easy early but vary it up). My problem is I live in a gridlocked city and apart from the previous rebuilder letting it idle about 20 minutes before I drove it out (and god knows how long for testing prior to when I turned up), I drove out and probably did about 3 hours driving in traffic mostly at idle or no real load before I could start to open her up on windy roads. It seems I did it all wrong.

So this time I'll do literally 1 to 2 minutes at fast idle to check for leaks etc., shut her down and then do the half hours drive if there's no traffic from the rebuilder to the dynamometer on a flatbed towtruck and get those rings seated properly under load. So far the motoman inicial dyno procedure ring seating is looking like the winner for me, and I recently found a further reference to a race n rally engine dyno run in technique in a 4 stroke performance tuning book by graham bell that I might do after the ring seating, not sure yet, it apparently goes:
25% maximum torque -10 mins
33% - 30 min
45% - 30 min
56% - 30 min
66% - 30 min
 
from what i've read, and what i believe to be logical out of all the varied opinions, is that a bad start (from either nursing that doesn't put enough pressure on the ring to expand them into the cyclinder wall, or from over exertion creating to much heat) can get smooth glazing deposits going on the cyclinder wall from burnt oil that doesn't allow the rings to wear out a proper seal.

this page explains it ok, but its a bit long so i'll paste just the relevant bit here

http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getitems.php3?Breaking in a Diesel Engine

"Heat is important to assist wear for break-in but too much can cause major problems. This is the reason we should not subject the engine to significant loading for the first 1000 miles of its operation. Loading heavily will introduce more fuel to the cylinder, and will add significant amounts of heat and pressure to the cylinder components. Couple that scenario with new rings on a freshly honed cylinder wall and we can only imagine the amount of friction and heat being produced and absorbed by the rings. Furthermore, the engine oil, lubricating the cylinder walls, will flash burn when it contacts the very hot rings. The burned oil will leave a hard, enamel like residue on the cylinder wall, commonly known as oil glazing. When the rings are permitted to operate under such high temperatures, oil glazing of the cylinder can happen very quickly. Once this glaze builds up, the only repair is a labor-intensive process that requires disassembling the engine and re-honing the effected cylinders. Oil glazing is a problem because it is typically not distributed evenly in the cylinder, and the spaces that exist between the ring and cylinder wall are either still there or new larger ones are created. Oil glazing is typically thicker towards the top of the cylinder and it builds up in the areas where heating is the greatest. The glaze has very smooth and friction free properties that do not allow it to be scraped away by the rings. This inhibits further metal-to-metal wear between the cylinder wall and rings, preventing further mating of ring and cylinder. Thus, those small gaps between ring and cylinder surface will never seal. These spaces will then allow pressurized gasses and unburned fuel to escape into the crankcase, while allowing oil from the crankcase to enter the cylinder above the top compression ring.

Well why not run the engine at idle or under no load? This is bad too. It can create a similar condition to glazing. The rings need to expand a little during this initial break-in period, just not so much that they overheat and flash the engine oil. The engine needs to be moderately loaded in order to break in correctly. Running the engine under very light or no load prevents the oil film placed on the cylinder wall from being scraped away by the expanding compression rings. The rings will instead “hydroplane” or ride over the deposited oil film, allowing it to be exposed to the cylinder combustion. The oil film will then partially burn on the cylinder leaving a residue that will build up and oxidize over time. Eventually this leaves a hard deposit on the cylinder wall that is very similar to the glaze left from flash burning. My caution to those just running the engine as a normal daily driver (without some loading) and especially those who love to idle their vehicles, expect some VERY extended break-in periods (up to 30,000 miles on one I know of). Expect oil consumption forever due to oil glazing. The rings never really seat well if they cannot expand from the dynamics and heat that a load produces. Expect poor mileage due to the passing of compression and combustion gasses around the compression rings. Additionally, expect to see increased bearing wear and engine wear due to the fuel passing the rings diluting the engine oil.

Thus, we can see that heavy loading and light loading can cause some major problems. Moderate loading is the key to a proper break in for the first 1000 miles. It permits the loose fitting piston rings to expand into the cylinder walls allowing them to perform double duty: First, scraping oil off the cylinder wall, and second, to create friction that will promote wearing the two surfaces to each other’s proportions. Furthermore, moderate loading will allow the rings to get hot but not to the point where it will flash the lubricating oil supplied to the cylinder walls."


Thank you, I find this interesting. The glazing is certainly a potential problem, but I would assume it has mostly to do with quality of oil these days. And I would expect it to be much better than it used to be. Accordingly, it is much less important to keep the trucks running after stopping these days to avoid oil hardening in the turbo bearings.

Things like this make me doubt the validity of such an article though: "The rings need to expand a little during this initial break-in period,.."
That just makes no sense at all from a material physics point of view. Either the rings expand every time they heat up, or not. If they were to expand the very first time they heat up, and then not, the manufacturer would certainly preheat them once.
Also, ring 1 and ring 2 have different shape, one do scrape oil, one to spread it.
Finally, why is the glazing only a problem during break in, and not later? According to this write up, glazing is a result from flash oil-burning on contact of oil with rings. I very much doubt that too. The oil on the cylinder wall would burn at much higher temperature than the atomized diesel in the chamber. So if the rings were hot enough to set oil on fire, no controlled ignition by pressure/heat could happen in the cylinder. The diesel would just go up as soon as the first molecule hits a ring.

I am not trying to be an ass, I just keep thinking about the break in stuff and wondering.
cheers,
jan
 
hings like this make me doubt the validity of such an article though: "The rings need to expand a little during this initial break-in period,.."
That just makes no sense at all from a material physics point of view. Either the rings expand every time they heat up, or not. If they were to expand the very first time they heat up, and then not, the manufacturer would certainly preheat them once

by expanding he's just talking about them moving from their normal (loose) position to a position (down and out) on to the cylinder wall by pressure. i think only race pistons have rings (or no rings) that do not move to the wall under pressure. by not driving under load the rings don't 'expand' into the wall. but i agree he's used the wrong word, although this is good as you'd hope he's more of a mechanic than a writer!

i think the glazing is a problem at break-in because there are spaces where it can form and not necessarily fill them completely. once the rings are seated and there is no space between the metal surfaces, it would be difficult for anything to accumulate (under varied driving conditions) as the rings would remove it straight away.
 
Things like this make me doubt the validity of such an article though: "The rings need to expand a little during this initial break-in period,.."

I wonder if he's talking about the combustion gases getting behind the top compression ring and forcing it outwards to promote a better ring to cylinder seal.

I know on high performance pistons they have little ports called "gas ports" for this exact reason. They force the combustion gases behind the top ring to let less leakage past and promote better ring seal.

Maybe not even close to what he was talking about but thought id share anyway.
 
mopp_0503_08_z+sealing_piston_rings+gas_ports.webp
Oops. With pic
 
My Isuzu has those on the lower ring. To let the lower ring seat but also I guess to get oil from the squirters onto the walls. Here's a pic I stole from Alibaba:
ISUZU_PISTON_4BD1T_8_94321_734_0.jpg


I think an engine has to be run in the way it is intended to be used. I would rather drive it for half a day than have it sitting on a dyno for half a day. Maybe trailer it out of town first?
 
My Isuzu has those on the lower ring. To let the lower ring seat but also I guess to get oil from the squirters onto the walls. Here's a pic I stole from Alibaba:
ISUZU_PISTON_4BD1T_8_94321_734_0.jpg


I think an engine has to be run in the way it is intended to be used. I would rather drive it for half a day than have it sitting on a dyno for half a day. Maybe trailer it out of town first?

But that's for the oil-wiper coil, not a compression ring, correct?
cheers,
J
 
I would rather drive it for half a day than have it sitting on a dyno for half a day. Maybe trailer it out of town first?

So would I, but flatbedding it to the dyno is the only option for me, no buddies with trailers. I also have the interior stripped bare and all barwork removed at the moment so she's light as a feather and not ideal for getting on a moderate load without high revs.
 
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