Alignment results--question:

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ShottsUZJ100

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OK, I'm ready for Colorado. Here's the recent work history over the past 6-months (related to the coming question):

New CV axles
New lower arms/ball joints (upper arms/joints are fine)
Alignment (6-months ago)
Everything was re-torqued last month

New MT KM2's were slapped on last week.

An alignment were done again today. During the alignment I got a call about two things I already know of. They were:

*Your steering rack has play in it and there's a tiny leak at the DS boot. Should be OK For a while though.
*Your DS wheel bearing is loose a bit.

I planned on fixing these AFTER Colorado because I know they can "make the run". Now, to the question...........

SAI specs are 11.4-12.9

DS was 11.6 before and after...OK
PS was 15.7 before and after...OUT OF SPEC

Included Angle specs are 10.8-13.8

DS was 11.7 before and after...OK
PS was 15.5 before and after...OUT OF SPEC

Under "Front" it shows:

Cross SAI is 4.1 before and after...spec is -0.5 to 0.5 OUT OF SPEC

CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THIS MEANS AND WHAT'S WRONG (OUT OF SPEC)? GRACIAS!
 
sleeoffroad said:
Scan the document and post it. The above does not make sense, except that it appears that they could not get it adjusted back into spec on the PS.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. Here it is. So what's the SAI crud mean? What's SAI? Cross SAI? Am I gonna rip up my new tires?

583800368_mjmvW-XL.jpg
 
sleeoffroad said:
Here you go
Wheel Alignment A Short Course)
Click to expand...

Thanks. And VERY interesting. OK, so SAI should be the same on both sides. If not the likely issue is a bent part in the steering they say.

QUESTION: My guess it's off because my steering rack has play? Sound likely or do you think I actually have something bent? Everything down there is new though!

From Slee's link:

"Because of this, if the SAI is different from side to side, it will cause a pull at very slow speeds. Most alignment machines have a way to measure SAI; however it is not separately adjustable. The most likely cause for SAI being out is bent parts which must be replaced to correct the condition. SAI is also referred to as KPI (King Pin Inclination) on trucks and old cars with king pins instead of ball joints.

Return

Included Angle
Included angle is the angle formed between the SAI and the camber. Included angle is not directly measurable. To determine the included angle, you add the SAI to the camber. If the camber is negative, then the included angle will be less than the SAI, if the camber is positive, it will be greater. The included angle must be the same from side to side even if the camber is different. If it is not the same, then something is bent, most likely the steering"
 
ShottsUZJ100 said:
Thanks. And VERY interesting. OK, so SAI should be the same on both sides. If not the likely issue is a bent part in the steering they say.

QUESTION: My guess it's off because my steering rack has play? Sound likely or do you think I actually have something bent? Everything down there is new though!
Click to expand...


I would start to wonder if is the other way around, the way you go through racks. IOW, could your out-of-spec SAI be causing premature wear on the rack? What would have to get bent though to cause that? Outer tie rod? Knuckle arms? Front end of the frame? Does anyone else running 35's have similar issues?

BTW: if I read those diagrams correctly on the link that Cristo sent, then by adding wheel spacers you increased the SAI because you moved the center line for vertical.
 
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Hicaira said:
I would start to wonder if is the other way around, the way you go through racks. IOW, could your out-of-spec SAI be causing premature wear on the rack? What would have to get bent though to cause that? Outer tie rod? Knuckle arms? Front end of the frame? Does anyone else running 35's have similar issues?

BTW: if I read those diagrams correctly on the link that Cristo sent, then by adding wheel spacers you increased the SAI because you moved the center line for vertical.
Click to expand...

Very interesting question. I need to think on this.

(And I myself don't have spacers though others do)
 
Hicaira said:
I would start to wonder if is the other way around, the way you go through racks. IOW, could your out-of-spec SAI be causing premature wear on the rack? What would have to get bent though to cause that? Outer tie rod? Knuckle arms? Front end of the frame? Does anyone else running 35's have similar issues?
Click to expand...

Some alignment shops don't measure SAI. I need to see if I can find old alignment sheets on the 100 and compare. I just never remember seeing post alignment numbers being out of spec like this time.
 
I found another site that has more detail on SAI. Everything seems to point to something bent on that side.

Wheel Alignment


"Steering Axis Inclination (SAI):
The angle formed by a line that runs through the upper and lower steering pivots with respect to vertical. On a SLA suspension, the line runs through the upper and lower ball joints. .........

Viewed from the front, SAI is also the inward tilt of the steering axis. Like caster, it provides directional stability. But it also reduces steering effort by reducing the scrub radius. SAI is a built-in nonadjustable angle and is used with camber and the included angle to diagnose bent spindles, struts and mislocated crossmembers." (italics added).


 
Trunk Monkey said:
Does your truck exhibit the slow speed pull they mention? Any other signs like tire wear or other symptoms?
Click to expand...

1. Since new the truck has always turned the steering wheel on it's own a touch to the left when taking off from a red light. I had two other AWD/FT4WD vehicles do it as well. After 5MPH the wheel straightens itself out. I always equated that as "normal".

2. Tires are normally OK though my last set in the front wore FAST, especially that PS tire. This was due to it needing an alignment for a long time and I was just TOO busy last year work-wise. The truck always pulled a bit to the right and the steering wheel was off-centered clockwise as well. Since those fronts were so worn I just bought my 4 new tires.

QUESTION: Does anybody elses steering wheel move a tad on it's own on take off (then center back up)?

Hicaira said:
I found another site that has more detail on SAI. Everything seems to point to something bent on that side.

Wheel Alignment


"Steering Axis Inclination (SAI):
The angle formed by a line that runs through the upper and lower steering pivots with respect to vertical. On a SLA suspension, the line runs through the upper and lower ball joints. .........

Viewed from the front, SAI is also the inward tilt of the steering axis. Like caster, it provides directional stability. But it also reduces steering effort by reducing the scrub radius. SAI is a built-in nonadjustable angle and is used with camber and the included angle to diagnose bent spindles, struts and mislocated crossmembers." (italics added).
Click to expand...

Yezzzz....I need to find old alignment papers and see what they say. My last alignment was done at Toyota. Maybe they do not report SAI? I'll find out though I leave for my Natl Sales Meeting tomorrow and it goes all week.

Interesting info:

"If SAI is lower than specification, look for damage low. If SAI is greater than specification, look for damage high. Also, in both cases, check that the lower ball joint isn't bent. Left unchecked, this can misdirect technicians into thinking damages exist in other areas.

To check this, raise the wheels off the ground and manually grab the tire and move each wheel through its turning radius. Pay close attention to any abnormal (not smooth) rotation of the lower ball joint."

My PS SAI is much higher than spec (15.7 where spec is 11.4-12.9). Hmmm, maybe my upper arm ball joints are wearing. Something else to check.

Wheel Alignment Terms Axis Inclination

Going by their chart, I have:

SAI = More than spec
Camber = Equal to spec
Included Angle = More than spec

They say the possibilities are:

HUH, WHICH CHART DO I USE? SLA? There's no match. ???
 
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TALK ABOUT "SPINNING YOUR WHEELS"?

I stopped by the shop and spoke to the alignment tech. He said he didn't lock the braking system down and run the SAI test because he knew everything was NEW underneath. :mad: That's why the bad reading!

He said no worries, no bends, nothing wrong. :mad: That's good I guess. He did though spend some time telling about my leaking steering rack bushings and why I should replace them ASAP. :mad:
 
When I start from a light, my 100 pulls to the right. After takeoff, it tracks pretty straight. It will pull to the right slightly after traveling quite a distance. Is there a way to get the truck not to pull so hard on initial take-off?

I don't remember it doing this when I got the truck (not new). Also I have had it aligned recently and the pull to the side when taking off was not really remedied at all.
 
ShottsUZJ100 said:
TALK ABOUT "SPINNING YOUR WHEELS"?
He did though spend some time telling about my leaking steering rack bushings and why I should replace them ASAP. :mad:
Click to expand...

Shotts - What's your plan with the steering rack? I was changing my oil this afternoon and noticed my steering rack is leaking quite bad. I talked with my neighbor who is a Toyota Master Tech and 80 owner. He suggested buying the Toyota remanufactured rack and replacing the entire thing. I'm at 171,000 running 35 inch BFGs. My guess is the rebuilt rack should get me another 50 - 70k? I see in this thread here you were on your 4th steering rack two years ago!? Have you been able to come up with a reason you are burning through them - other than you wheel the shiz out of your truck? :steer:I just don't want to replace the entire rack - such a pain in the ass. Share what your plans are after your trip.
 
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Utahfj62 said:
Shotts - What's your plan with the steering rack? I was changing my oil this afternoon and noticed my steering rack is leaking quite bad. I talked with my neighbor who is a Toyota Master Tech and 80 owner. He suggested buying the Toyota remanufactured rack and replacing the entire thing. I'm at 171,000 running 35 inch BFGs. My guess is the rebuilt rack should get me another 50 - 70k? I see in this thread here you were on your 4th steering rack two years ago!? Have you been able to come up with a reason you are burning through them - other than you wheel the shiz out of your truck? :steer:I just don't want to replace the entire rack - such a pain in the ass. Share what your plans are after your trip.
Click to expand...

I'm back from my annual sales meeting. Thank God! :D

I don't want anything to go wrong during my Ouray trip. I think I'll slap rack #5 in before hand if I can get it done. Busy schedule right now.

Myself..I won't mess with aftermarket bushing etc. It'll be another Toyota rack with the the work done at the dealership.

Now that I know I do not have a SAI alignment issue, I'm back to the conclusion that I simply wear them out. Even with the front locker on the thing turns ASAP where you want it. Up and over rocks it's effortless. I'll take the performance over the reliability in this case.
 
ShottsUZJ100 said:
I'm back from my annual sales meeting. Thank God! :D

I don't want anything to go wrong during my Ouray trip. I think I'll slap rack #5 in before hand if I can get it done. Busy schedule right now.

Myself..I won't mess with aftermarket bushing etc. It'll be another Toyota rack with the the work done at the dealership.

Now that I know I do not have a SAI alignment issue, I'm back to the conclusion that I simply wear them out. Even with the front locker on the thing turns ASAP where you want it. Up and over rocks it's effortless. I'll take the performance over the reliability in this case.
Click to expand...

Really? I see it quite opposite. I'm bugged that my steering rack is wearing out so quickly. Granted I am on 35's, but the truck only has 25,000 miles on those tires and have only done offroading in the 100 series prolly a dozen times! If the parts or systems are being stressed I'd like to be able to 'feel' it. 99.9% of the time I'll take the dependability and durability over performance. That's how the Land Cruiser earned it's reputation.
 
Elijah said:
Really? I see it quite opposite. I'm bugged that my steering rack is wearing out so quickly. Granted I am on 35's, but the truck only has 25,000 miles on those tires and have only done offroading in the 100 series prolly a dozen times! If the parts or systems are being stressed I'd like to be able to 'feel' it. 99.9% of the time I'll take the dependability and durability over performance. That's how the Land Cruiser earned it's reputation.
Click to expand...

Don't confuse "dependable" with certain parts that simply do not last as long as some others. The racks don't fail...they wear out earlier than some other types. That's the price you pay for performance...and I'll pay. I'd prefer the 100's steering in my 80's for certain.

In this case it's the timing of the rack leak vs vacation time. Has nothing to do with reliability.
 
I agree with Shotts that the 100 is a pleasure to drive on and off road - but I also agree with Elijah - I'm pretty disapointed to find out the steering rack doesnot hold up over time. Yes - it is the price you have to pay to wheel the 100 according to Shotts - but that is why I bought the Cruiser - so I could wheel it confidently without having to replace components frequently like I had to on other 4 x 4's I've owned. I don't have the resources to install a new or rebuilt rack every 30 - 50k miles. It sucks. I may end up going back to an 80 for wheeling and strip my 100 back to near stock for the wife's daily driver. Don't know at this point - still considering my options but very dissapointed in the racks durability. :meh:
 
Utahfj62 said:
I agree with Shotts that the 100 is a pleasure to drive on and off road - but I also agree with Elijah - I'm pretty disapointed to find out the steering rack doesnot hold up over time. Yes - it is the price you have to pay to wheel the 100 according to Shotts - but that is why I bought the Cruiser - so I could wheel it confidently without having to replace components frequently like I had to on other 4 x 4's I've owned. I don't have the resources to install a new or rebuilt rack every 30 - 50k miles. It sucks. I may end up going back to an 80 for wheeling and strip my 100 back to near stock for the wife's daily driver. Don't know at this point - still considering my options but very dissapointed in the racks durability. :meh:
Click to expand...

I too am disappointed in the early rack replacements. Disappointed though is it.

Overall the 100-series are more reliable overall than any other Series since sources have tracked it. They surpass the famous 80-series as well. IF the trouble was a trouble that just "quit on you" then it would effect the history of the Series. The racks do not (unless you never have your vehicle inspected).
 
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