AHC does large accumulator affect damping?

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Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Threads
3
Messages
35
Location
Texas
I bought a 03 LX 2 years ago. The 4 position damping selector switch makes a very slight difference when moved to any position. The ride is floating soft almost too much. I updated all four globes thinking it would ride better and the selector switch would work again. After I installed the globes, the ride became harsh. Every little bump in the road is felt, the large bumps are absorbed. I test drove an 07 LX last week and it drove much smoother than mine and the 4 position switch made a big difference. My question is, does the single height control accumulator located on the left rail affect the damping if it is failed or does it just store pressure to raise the LX faster than the pump?
I have read many posts in the past year trying to figure this out - any thoughts are appreciated. I am ready to pull the AHC if I can not find a resolution since the ride is so harsh.
 
I bought a 03 LX 2 years ago. The 4 position damping selector switch makes a very slight difference when moved to any position. The ride is floating soft almost too much. I updated all four globes thinking it would ride better and the selector switch would work again. After I installed the globes, the ride became harsh. Every little bump in the road is felt, the large bumps are absorbed. I test drove an 07 LX last week and it drove much smoother than mine and the 4 position switch made a big difference. My question is, does the single height control accumulator located on the left rail affect the damping if it is failed or does it just store pressure to raise the LX faster than the pump? I have read many posts in the past year trying to figure this out - any thoughts are appreciated. I am ready to pull the AHC if I can not find a resolution since the ride is so harsh.
The height accumulator doesn't influence the ride quality, that's done at the four damping control actuators with their individual globes. I guess the first questions are what are your neutral pressures and does the AHC system have any stored DTCs? Did you replace with OEM globes? Did you successfully purge all air out when you changed globes? Try resetting the AHC ECM buy pulling the battery negative for 10 minutes, worth a try.

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Did you bleed the system when you installed the new globes? My LX had a pretty hard ride, but after putting new fluid in it rides significantly better.
 
I have e-mailed Cruiser03 to learn more and help if we can. We do not have him as a Customer of ours (B and B Suspension) under that name and have NOT received any information from ANY Customer about ANY problems in many months. IF our product has failed, we definitely want to figure out WHY.

We want to again caution everyone there is STILL some bad AHC fluid (Counterfeit?) coming out of Dealer stock and Toyota's supply system--all over the world now. The cans are appear Perfect, the oil looks OK, but is a totally incompatible ester based fluid that will ruin the 'rubber' seals and flex hoses and Our accumulator diaphragms. Real GENUINE AHC fluid is marginal in anti-wear properties and we see many pump failures in hot weather caused by inadequate oil film strength, especially if the AHC oil has not been regularly changed..
 
PADDO,
From reading the FSM and reading posts it is also my conclusion that the height control accumulator does not affect ride damping, but just need others options as well because I am running out of patience and $. My neutral pressures have been checked first by a gauge set I had made and screwed into the bleeder plug, then by using the techstream software on my XP laptop. I made a slight adjustment to the tortion bars last year and replaced the rear springs. The settings are right on now. I replaced the globes with aftermarket ones originally. When the ride went hard, the vendor sent me a second pair for free with the toyota OEM spec pressure. The second pair with a little less pressure rode the same. Now I have OEM toyota and the ride is once again the same - so blaming the globes seems out of the question since this is my 3rd attempt. I pulled the power to the vehicle several times, once to change the battery and notice no change. When I got the LX the front shocks were leaking so I changed them and of course learned how to bleed everything. I changed the plastic AHC fluid reservoir because it was so dirty I could not see the fluid level. Using a dip stick the old globes were at about 9 and the new right above 14 notches. After changing the reservoir I still notices small black particles in the fluid. I removed, cleaned and replaced it, still have dirt showing up. Then my rear shocks began to leak, so I replaced them and once again cleaned the reservoir flushed with 2 cans of fluid and now my fluid seems to stay clean. I am thinking the shock seals were throwing off small black sealant into the AHC fluid and it was making it up to the plastic reservoir and sticking to the side walls. The heat almost performed a chemical like bond and i could not scrape it off the inside of the old reservoir. So now I have really fresh fluid, 4 new globes and 4 new shocks no codes and a stiff ride and the comfort selector barely works. I took it to the Lexus dealer and they cycled system up and down probably 10 times in a row and got a code. C1762 fluid pressure malfunction(pump and motor does not supply fluid). The first level tech called me said I needed a new pump assembly, something about $2000. I said no, I have an issue with the ride quality not height. Then they handed me off to a very nice diagnostics specialist. He said I do not need a pump(yes they would have been happy to take my $ for nothing). The code is generating because the height accumulator is stuck and does not move. Apparently it is an 800 psi charged piston which the pump fills with fluid and then can be released quickly to control the height. When it freezes the symptom is when going from L or N to H(lifting the vehicle) with the selector switch the pump comes on immediately and pumps up the vehicle. With a properly functioning accumulator the vehicle raises quickly with the stored pressure and the pump can fill the accumulator later. My LX has done this since I have had it for 2 years - I just did not know my accumulator was bad. Eventually the pump will give out working too hard. So, does the accumulator have anything at all to do with ride quality - I share your opinion that it does not, but I would like to be really sure since it is getting expensive to start replacing parts. So what parts are suspect? Damping force actuators are the only thing remaining if that big height control accumulator is not on the list of suspicious parts. When I bought the vehicle, the first time I bled/flushed the fluid a lot a air came out followed by real ugly fluid. The LX was a one owner serviced at dealer always. I pulled the records, they show motor oil changes along with many very picky issues but not one mention about AHC fluid -91k miles and 9 years. If the fluid was never changed would the damping force actuators fail gradually from heat/lack of lubrication excessive air? I am waiting for the tech to perform every diagnostic check on the system and tell me what part has failed. I will post the results of this no matter what the outcome. This forum has helped my greatly, thank you for posting your thoughts.
 
PADDO, From reading the FSM and reading posts it is also my conclusion that the height control accumulator does not affect ride damping, but just need others options as well because I am running out of patience and $. My neutral pressures have been checked first by a gauge set I had made and screwed into the bleeder plug, then by using the techstream software on my XP laptop. I made a slight adjustment to the tortion bars last year and replaced the rear springs. The settings are right on now. I replaced the globes with aftermarket ones originally. When the ride went hard, the vendor sent me a second pair for free with the toyota OEM spec pressure. The second pair with a little less pressure rode the same. Now I have OEM toyota and the ride is once again the same - so blaming the globes seems out of the question since this is my 3rd attempt. I pulled the power to the vehicle several times, once to change the battery and notice no change. When I got the LX the front shocks were leaking so I changed them and of course learned how to bleed everything. I changed the plastic AHC fluid reservoir because it was so dirty I could not see the fluid level. Using a dip stick the old globes were at about 9 and the new right above 14 notches. After changing the reservoir I still notices small black particles in the fluid. I removed, cleaned and replaced it, still have dirt showing up. Then my rear shocks began to leak, so I replaced them and once again cleaned the reservoir flushed with 2 cans of fluid and now my fluid seems to stay clean. I am thinking the shock seals were throwing off small black sealant into the AHC fluid and it was making it up to the plastic reservoir and sticking to the side walls. The heat almost performed a chemical like bond and i could not scrape it off the inside of the old reservoir. So now I have really fresh fluid, 4 new globes and 4 new shocks no codes and a stiff ride and the comfort selector barely works. I took it to the Lexus dealer and they cycled system up and down probably 10 times in a row and got a code. C1762 fluid pressure malfunction(pump and motor does not supply fluid). The first level tech called me said I needed a new pump assembly, something about $2000. I said no, I have an issue with the ride quality not height. Then they handed me off to a very nice diagnostics specialist. He said I do not need a pump(yes they would have been happy to take my $ for nothing). The code is generating because the height accumulator is stuck and does not move. Apparently it is an 800 psi charged piston which the pump fills with fluid and then can be released quickly to control the height. When it freezes the symptom is when going from L or N to H(lifting the vehicle) with the selector switch the pump comes on immediately and pumps up the vehicle. With a properly functioning accumulator the vehicle raises quickly with the stored pressure and the pump can fill the accumulator later. My LX has done this since I have had it for 2 years - I just did not know my accumulator was bad. Eventually the pump will give out working too hard. So, does the accumulator have anything at all to do with ride quality - I share your opinion that it does not, but I would like to be really sure since it is getting expensive to start replacing parts. So what parts are suspect? Damping force actuators are the only thing remaining if that big height control accumulator is not on the list of suspicious parts. When I bought the vehicle, the first time I bled/flushed the fluid a lot a air came out followed by real ugly fluid. The LX was a one owner serviced at dealer always. I pulled the records, they show motor oil changes along with many very picky issues but not one mention about AHC fluid -91k miles and 9 years. If the fluid was never changed would the damping force actuators fail gradually from heat/lack of lubrication excessive air? I am waiting for the tech to perform every diagnostic check on the system and tell me what part has failed. I will post the results of this no matter what the outcome. This forum has helped my greatly, thank you for posting your thoughts.
I feel for you, you've worked this issue pretty hard! Your fault finding and elimination points to the four control dampers not stepping thorough their four positions, they have four position stepper motors that shuttle the damping control valves through their 16 positions. Easy to check and clean the four position switch, it pops out, it has a three finger slider that contacts PCB tracks. I pulled mine, degreased the contact surfaces and cleaned them up with an eraser. 10 minute job, someone posted on the UK TLOC site that cleaning these contacts fixed their issue. Worth a shot.

image-4248351237.webp

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image-4248351237.webp
 
If you had particles in the fluid, it's not unlikely that an actuator port is blocked, or even several of them -- Tiny holes.
 
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I did hook up to techstream and cycle the comfort selector switch back and forth and observe the ECU send back the switch settings to the software correctly. My issue is constant in any switch position so i am guessing it is not switch related but I will look into it - ty.
Does anyone know how the vehicle feels when performing the "damping force controlling condition test" outlined in the FSM? In this test you jumper Ts and E1 of the DLC1 to get into diagnostic mode, start the vehicle then press the brake pedal 1 time to get into actuator position 1. Then you can gently accelerate to just over 3 mph and it locks it into that position for a test drive. When I perform this test this is how my LX rides normally and it is harsh over small bumps. When I press the brake pedal 4 times to get into actuator position 4, and perform the same test drive around the block I do not feel it rides any different. Then I get into actuator position 8 and it rides the same. At position 12 it is a little firmer and I can definitely feel it getting hard in position 16. The manual states to push on the bumper at all 4 corners to feel the increased resistance from 1 to 16. I am not really sure I feel anything from 1 to 8 but after 8 I am feeling it get firmer and by the time I am at 16 I can barely push the bumper down. Is this normal, or should I feel something from 1 to 8?
 
Thanks uHu for the replies. Does anyone happen to know how small the holes are? The black debris is very fine, almost like a dust - I suppose it could stick to metal parts as well as the plastic reservoir. Do you know how to test the 4 steps of each dampener? I assume it is just a supplied voltage but can not find it in the FSM or electrical diagram. With the know voltage I can meter for changes - just a thought.
 
Don't know the exact size of the holes, and if your particles are like dust-size, maybe look at something else. Another bleed maybe?

The cylindrical accumulator works according to this tekst:

Accumulator text 1.webp
 
And this: (So, I think a malfunctioning accumulator wouldn't affect your problem)

Accumulator text 2.webp
 
Here is a drawing of the innards of the actuator - quite a collection of small delicate parts - can it be taken apart and cleaned?
I suppose the OME-guys think we are crazy not to rip out the ahc right away :)

Actuator cut.webp
 
Thanks uHu for the replies. Does anyone happen to know how small the holes are? The black debris is very fine, almost like a dust - I suppose it could stick to metal parts as well as the plastic reservoir. Do you know how to test the 4 steps of each dampener? I assume it is just a supplied voltage but can not find it in the FSM or electrical diagram. With the know voltage I can meter for changes - just a thought.
I've done the manual damping control test and pretty much got results as you described IIRC, but I wasn't looking for anything in particular, more of an educational experience. Do you have the damping control check pages from the FSM? It says to test the resistance of each stepper coil, should be between 10 and 13 ohms, pin 2 is common. I suspect the stepper motor is relatively low torque, just based on the light gage wiring and I recall the ECU will set a fault code if current excess 6 amps for x time? so I think the damper internals are probably gummed up and stuck with the particulate contamination you've described. I'll check what other fault finding data I have. Happy to measure voltages at the dampers and share results if that helps you out. Are you up for an experimental tear down of one of your damper controllers? The damper valve assy cross sectional diagram seems to show just one main o ring sealing the the main valve body, hopefully they can be broken down, cleaned and reassembled without too much grief?

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uHu,
This is helpful information, where did you find this? I have the 03 LX FSM and do not see it, am i blind.
The Height Control Accumulator(HCA) description of operation you posted describes why my pump always comes on when I select a higher ride height and confirm the techs finding -ty. My HCA is shot and does not store one bit of volume. Is there a description of operation for the damping force actuator from your source?
Very interesting that above 16 mph the pump only makes changes, does this imply that the pressure in the HCA is being used for damping? Trying to remove HCA from the damping discussion - close just not quite there yet. :)
 
PADDO,
I do have the resistance check outlined in the FSM. My LX is at Lexus currently for diagnostics. It will be interesting to hear their findings. They should perform the resistance test. It would be interesting to know in step 1 of 16 if there is any voltage applied and to which of the 4 motors. Same for step 16. Then I could put it in diagnostics mode and test it - Lexus should report this. This would eliminate the ECU/electrical as a source of problem. From there on it's only the hard parts. At the point I have identified the damping force actuator I am in for a teardown.
 
PADDO, I do have the resistance check outlined in the FSM. My LX is at Lexus currently for diagnostics. It will be interesting to hear their findings. They should perform the resistance test. It would be interesting to know in step 1 of 16 if there is any voltage applied and to which of the 4 motors. Same for step 16. Then I could put it in diagnostics mode and test it - Lexus should report this. This would eliminate the ECU/electrical as a source of problem. From there on it's only the hard parts. At the point I have identified the damping force actuator I am in for a teardown.
Try this link
http://st.club-lexus.ru/attach/u/6b15e9be.pdf

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My 03 LX FSM DI-362 says between 12.0 and 13.6 ohms. Don't mean to be picky but a marginal coil could be trouble. Are the stepper coils changing or you just estimating?

I've done the manual damping control test and pretty much got results as you described IIRC, but I wasn't looking for anything in particular, more of an educational experience. Do you have the damping control check pages from the FSM? It says to test the resistance of each stepper coil, should be between 10 and 13 ohms, pin 2 is common. I suspect the stepper motor is relatively low torque, just based on the light gage wiring and I recall the ECU will set a fault code if current excess 6 amps for x time? so I think the damper internals are probably gummed up and stuck with the particulate contamination you've described. I'll check what other fault finding data I have. Happy to measure voltages at the dampers and share results if that helps you out. Are you up for an experimental tear down of one of your damper controllers? The damper valve assy cross sectional diagram seems to show just one main o ring sealing the the main valve body, hopefully they can be broken down, cleaned and reassembled without too much grief?

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My 03 LX FSM DI-362 says between 12.0 and 13.6 ohms. Don't mean to be picky but a marginal coil could be trouble. Are the stepper coils changing or you just estimating?
My bad, 12 - 13.6 ohms is what my manual says too. I was working off memory, shouldn't do that. I'll recheck resistances today.

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Can someone perform this same test

Lexus informed me they could not continue the diagnostics without first replacing the large height control accumulator which is probably frozen. I agreed that it needs replacing but IMO it does not affect the ride quality that I would like diagnosed. I declined the repair. They returned the LX, topped off my almost empty gas tank for free, washed it, waived the diagnostic fee and offered to sell me the accumulator at the lowest price I have ever seen. Once the part is installed we could continue with the diagnostics. For the 3 weeks in the shop I was driving their loaner at no cost.
I performed the damping control electrical resistance check testing each of the 4 wires to the damper. Using my craftsman professional meter I got a 10.5 Ohm reading for 1/2 second then 12.3. Not sure what that is about. Switch to my Fluke meter and got 12.6 to 13.2 ranges on all the 4 dampers. I am calling this a pass.
Next I performed the Damping force controlling condition check. Here are the steps I used.
1)open the rear lower gate to gain leverage- pushing on the bumper is hard to measure
2)Tape a plastic ruler that reads mm to the handle of a floor jack and roll it up next to the lowered gate at the very rear corner - make sure there is at least 50mm down to read compression.
3)Jumper the DLC1 to get into diagnostic mode.
4)start vehicle in Normal height position
5)Press on lowered tail gate on drivers side and read how many mm travel down the dampers allow at the rear of the gate.
6)press the brake one time to move to the next highest step
7)repeat 16 times and get measurements
The process takes about 10 minutes to perform. I weight about 170 lbs, here are my observations.
steps and mm of compression
step1-45
step2-45
step3-45
step4-45
step5-45
step6-45
step7-44
step8-43
step9-42
step10-42
step11-41
step12-40 starting here sinks to final position slower
step13-40
step14-35
step15-27 starting here rebounds very slowly to 10mm
step16-23
These finding match with my driving experience when I change the 4 position comfort selector switch, no noticeable difference on the first 3 positions and firmer on the 4th. The FSM states, "Bounce the vehicle and check that the shock absorber is becoming harder". I assume all 16 steps should increase in resistance.
Can someone with an LX that has a comfort switch that works perform this test for comparison? much appreciated!
 
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