Adding circuits, no room left on breaker ground bar

[MoJ]

I have room for the hot and neutral leads but the ground bar is full. Would it cause any harm or look too DIY'er if I were to put more than one ground wire in a few of the ground bar screw down slots? I suppose I could go to the trouble of adding a sub panel but not really sure it's necessary.

 

[splitshot]

I've seen folks double up on the neutral or ground buss, shouldn't be a problem, but I wouldn't do it to any breakers (looks like all those are full also).
You gan get more breaker space by substituting two of your single pole breakers with a quad. Also if you notice, both neutral and ground busses are tied together

 

[MoJ]

I've seen folks double up on the neutral or ground buss, shouldn't be a problem, but I wouldn't do it to any breakers (looks like all those are full also).
You gan get more breaker space by substituting two of your single pole breakers with a quad. Also if you notice, both neutral and ground busses are tied together

Thanks, I was hoping it wasn't an issue. I had planned on the quads to cover the hot side. I have one hot slot open (lower right). I'm adding 5 circuits. I have 5 spaces open on the neutral and only one on the ground. I realize they're tied together anyway, just didn't want it to look like a hack job if someone popped the cover off the box.

 

[EricG]

Thanks, I was hoping it wasn't an issue. I had planned on the quads to cover the hot side. I have one hot slot open (lower right). I'm adding 5 circuits. I have 5 spaces open on the neutral and only one on the ground. I realize they're tied together anyway, just didn't want it to look like a hack job if someone popped the cover off the box.

As far as I know, neutral and ground together on the same bar is fine if it's the main panel - as someone else pointed out, they're tied together anyway.

If it's a sub-panel, you can't do that.

 

[mudnyreye]

It looks like you have a bunch of 20 amp breakers. If you can determine the source of most of them you will find that a double 10 amp will handle the load on the original side. i.e. the feed is 4 duplex outlets in a living room, occasional vacuum cleaner. The second side will provide an open source. make sure you analize the total load req. for each circuit, don't put a 30 amp breaker in where your max load will be 15 amps. They are rated for a good reason

 

[MoJ]

It looks like you have a bunch of 20 amp breakers. If you can determine the source of most of them you will find that a double 10 amp will handle the load on the original side. i.e. the feed is 4 duplex outlets in a living room, occasional vacuum cleaner. The second side will provide an open source. make sure you analize the total load req. for each circuit, don't put a 30 amp breaker in where your max load will be 15 amps. They are rated for a good reason

Most of the circuits for the main floor of the house use 20A with 12/2. The project I'm inquiring about now is for the basement and I went ahead and wired everything with 12/2 and planned on using 20A breakers. None of the 5 circuits I'm adding will likely need 20A but I guess I assumed overkill wasn't a bad idea. Should I just install 15A breakers instead?

 

[-Spike-]

No, everything I've ever read/heard says use 20 amp breakers everywhere possible for outlets, on 12 guage wire. I have never heard advice like mudnyreye is giving. Breakers are not physically sized by amperage- a 10 amp breaker is exactly the same size as a 20, or a 70 for that matter. There is no benefit to substituting a 20 amp breaker with a 10. Double breakers come in any amperage you want. In fact, you can substitute some of those 220v breakers with double breakers, giving you 2 220v lines in 2 spaces, rather than 1 220v line from 2 spaces. Looking at your pics, just doing this you could clear up 6 spaces, and add 12 circuits if you use double breakers.
Talk to LandcruiserPhil, he's an electrician, if you want a more professional opinion.

-Spike

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Time for a sub panel IMO
We do not use 1/2 size breakers because of the problems we have seen them cause over the years. Also the NEC has outlawed the use of 1/2 size breaker in new construction and a lot of cities have outlawed their use in remodel. My guess is the changes in the NEC and the city codes were because of the problems. Ya I know Home Depot sells the s*** out of them.

Is it a sub panel or a main panel?? Either way it not code compliant for todays codes. FWIW

mudnyreye where do you find 10A plug in breakers???

 

[MoJ]

Time for a sub panel IMO
We do not use 1/2 size breakers because of the problems we have seen them cause over the years. Also the NEC has outlawed the use of 1/2 size breaker in new construction and a lot of cities have outlawed their use in remodel. My guess is the changes in the NEC and the city codes were because of the problems. Ya I know Home Depot sells the s*** out of them.

Is it a sub panel or a main panel?? Either way it not code compliant for todays codes. FWIW

Thanks Phil.

The panel pictured is the main panel. I read through the county code last night and found that the 1/2 breakers are permitted. The house is <1 year old and passed each stage of the electrical inspection while under construction.

But, code or no code, I tend to like to do it right. If there's an issue with the 1/2 breakers, it sounds like I need to reconsider adding more to what the original electrician already used. What sort of problems are you running into?

 

[RHINO]

i dont like half breakers anymore and will only use full size. my panel was full like yours and i wanted to add some circuits for the shop, so instead of half breakers i went to the trouble of a sub panel so i could run full size. its not much work at all really, but it sounds like you have some exp. so i wont ramble on about it.

 

[EricG]

Is it a sub panel or a main panel?? Either way it not code compliant for todays codes. FWIW

Can you give us any insight into what's not compliant in the OP's picture?
edit - nevermind. On re-reading, I assume you're saying it isn't compliant due to the 1/2 height breakers.

What sot of problems have been encountered with them?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Thanks Phil.
<SNIP>
What sort of problems are you running into?

Can you give us any insight into what's not compliant in the OP's picture?
edit - nevermind. On re-reading, I assume you're saying it isn't compliant due to the 1/2 height breakers.

What sot of problems have been encountered with them?

This biggest problem is heat. GE 1/2 size breakers also plug into little tabs on the sides of the main buss bar were all other 1/2 size use the main buss. Not much contact area and then they compound the problem by stacking 1/2 size on top of each other. Higher amperage breaker (30A +) are more of a problem were loads are closer to the actual size of the breaker.

From the picture I was not able to see it as a main panel because I could not see a uffer bond or any piping system bonds (I assume you new house has water) that are required at the main service.

A sub panel is relatively inexpensive and will provide you with more room down the road. Full size breakers are also less expensivethen 1/2 size.

Like most trades there are 10 ways to do things and some ways are better then other depending on who you talk to. My reply is based on our service departments experience.

Good luck