3b push rod lifter?

[dkyuss]

Ok.... noticed a small bubbling oil leak just above the water pump gasket. Reading on here, people have discovered loose head bolts allowing seepage from the head gasket. Thought this was an easy enough thing to check.

pulled the valve cover and rocker arm assemble as per FSM. Set the torque wrench to 70 ft lbs (87 is the spec) and confirm all head bolts click before moving (tightening in sequence as per FSM)
Repeat with 80 ft lbs and 3 of 18 bolts move, several more than 1/4 turn (and bolt # 18 or 1 right above the water pump where I observed my leak).
Repeat at 85 ft lbs and 7 of the bolts tighten, several more than 1/4 turn.

Left it as is thinking all may be fixed!

Then I thought, while im in here, I should look at the push rods, clean up valve train etc.
Pulled the first push rod (closest to rad) and looks good. While the rod is in the bottom of the hole all feels tight and snug. After lifting approx 3/4" it goes loose and I inspect, wipe down and reinstall.
So far so good.l

On to hole #2, and I give a slight pull and as it goes loose, I hear a clink of something falling.....
Rod looks good, but will not insert fully in the hole now? Hitting what must have fallen/broken loose.
My heart starts racing a bit, I close the hood and walk away to try to educate myself what I just did!

Do I need to pull the head? Or access from the push rod cover plate? Something broke?
Or just a push rod lifer needs to be re seated?

Please advise!

81 bj60 500,000kms unknown prior work. Compression test was 410 to 425, except one cyl at 395. Turbo'd @ 12psi max. Maybe I should turn it down a bit?

 

[dkyuss]

Couple pics

Oil leak location

All torqued up, just before looking at push rods..............

 

[lostmarbles]

Then I thought, while im in here, I should look at the push rods, clean up valve train etc.
Pulled the first push rod (closest to rad) and looks good. While the rod is in the bottom of the hole all feels tight and snug. After lifting approx 3/4" it goes loose and I inspect, wipe down and reinstall.
So far so good.l

On to hole #2, and I give a slight pull and as it goes loose, I hear a clink of something falling.....
Rod looks good, but will not insert fully in the hole now? Hitting what must have fallen/broken loose.
My heart starts racing a bit, I close the hood and walk away to try to educate myself what I just did!

Do I need to pull the head? Or access from the push rod cover plate? Something broke?
Or just a push rod lifer needs to be re seated?

Please advise!....

I'd say the lifter/cam-follower has lifted with the pushrod and then not fallen back into place properly.

At worst I think the side cover will need to be removed.

But maybe using one of those "telescopic magnetic retrievers" you can lift it again and get it to drop back into place properly?

 

[ozcrusier]

I'm with Tom pull the cover and put the lifter back in its follower.

 

[dkyuss]

Done,
Cover pulled with everything else left in tact. (I ended up doing the same to #3 playing around before pulling the cover)
Hard to take this pic, but here ya go.

How concerning is the pitting on the bottom of the lifters?

The crumpled? end of the push rods? just under the shoulder of the cup. this is typical on the rocker arm end of all 8 pushrods.


Lifters back in and rods in place!

And as I am crawling around up here... I see rust.
A pic with the oil wiped away.... looks like I highlighted it! But as is.

Head gasket?

Anything else jump out at anyone?

 

[ozcrusier]

Its very concerning as the lifter face runs on the cam shaft.

 

[roma042987]

That oil leak probably won't go away. I d say the oil galley o-ring in the head gasket has failed. Since you already have the rockers off slap a head gasket on it.

 

[dkyuss]

That oil leak probably won't go away. I d say the oil galley o-ring in the head gasket has failed. Since you already have the rockers off slap a head gasket on it.

I think this is maybe becoming the plan.

Its very concerning as the lifter face runs on the cam shaft.

I agree. Lifters are easy enough to replace..... but what does the camshaft look like! And what would cause it? or normal wear and tear on the old beast?
I guess dropping the pan is the only way to inspect this but not sure I want to go there. Yet.
Ill wait and see what the underside of the head looks like first.

 

[cruisedeisel]

A few slow oil leaks are good, rust prevention.

 

[ozcrusier]

That's a really bad photo of the lifter give it a good clean and take another photo please.

 

[lostmarbles]

If the heads coming off, it'll be interesting to see if there is any issue with No.3 cylinder and particularly its exhaust valve. (I'm wondering if that rust colour may be being caused by excessive heat around that area.)

And I agree with Ozcruiser about the poor quality of the photo of the wear on the lifter. I'm no expert in that regard but even if I was I don't think I could see enough to comment.

 

[dkyuss]

That's a really bad photo of the lifter give it a good clean and take another photo please.

If the heads coming off, it'll be interesting to see if there is any issue with No.3 cylinder and particularly its exhaust valve. (I'm wondering if that rust colour may be being caused by excessive heat around that area.)

And I agree with Ozcruiser about the poor quality of the photo of the wear on the lifter. I'm no expert in that regard but even if I was I don't think I could see enough to comment.

Sorry, Lifter is back in and no other pictures. While the OD had no grooving and a very snug fit into the hole, the bottom surface that the cam rides on looked like pitted chrome surface. Smooth to the touch and no notable wear marks or grooves, but just small missing indents. The push rod cover is still off so I may pull them all to inspect. Wish I had a bore hole camera to take a look at the cams!



So pulled the head today and so far I do not see any major problems beyond the HG. Headgasket was cracked on cyl 3 and 4 just under the precups. All precups are cracked so will be replaced.

I was remembering also that it was cyl #3 that compression tested low at 380psi. 410 to 425 for the remainder. This will hopefully also explain why my first start is always rough with a little more smoke than normal for a minute or two. Also probably explains my several recent cooling leaks (cracked hose dripping and shortly after that was fixed the rad input spout needed re soldering) .

Here we are just after removing the head.

The blanked water port on cyl 3 left a pile of non magnetic crumbly sand like material on the engine block once the head was lifted, and corresponding port in the head is plugged with a thin layer of crud.... possibly a PO stop leak? or could this be combustion gasses and coolant crud?

I had to push a screw driver through this to open it up as it was blocked solid

After a little seafoam and paper towel. Pistons and liners look decent in my inexperienced opinion (never been this deep inside an engine before but doesn't look to scary). Please let me know if anything stands out.

There is some carbon build up on the piston heads and liners. Is this scraped off with a blade or chisel? brass or steel hand or powered wire wheel? scotch brite or steel wool? what about valves and seats?
Should I even attempt to touch the carbon on the liners (looks all above the rings anyway) and just concentrate on the piston heads and valves?

 

[dkyuss]

Pre seafoam wipe down. Not sure if bottom got scuffed when removing or if the pattern seen was original as I lifted the head enough to slide a couple 1x3s under it and pulled to the rad before lifting out. (2 person job!)

#4 Note the plugged hole before I opened it with a screwdriver

#3

1 and 2

And I did find another shot of the lifter and rod. Unfortunately cant see the face in question. What about the rod end. Is this damaged? Looks over heated on the end? crumpled under the shoulder? or this is the way they are supposed to look?

 

[dkyuss]

The Plan right now;
New Headgasket
New Precups
Clean all the things!

May be able to borrow a fuel injector tester and check those out for pressure and spray pattern

Should I buy a valve spring compressor (always looking for an excuse for new tools) to properly clean/inspect the valves?

Possible new lifters for piece of mind. Pushrods? still not confident looking at the bluing and crumpled shoulder......

Water pump has a little play and need a new fan clutch as well so might as well get er done!

Am I missing anything?

 

[dkyuss]

Close ups of cyl #3 valves as removed

Seat side

And cam lifters......... Not looking so great.

The worst of them (cyl #3). Intake on cyl 1 looks bad too.

@ozcrusier @lostmarbles
What do you guys think?

I will get this cleaned up a bit tonight and get some more pics out of valve seats etc

 

[lostmarbles]

As for the burnt-burr business on the pushrods I'd say that's normal and probably the result of "a resistance weld during manufacture that hasn't been cleaned up" ...but this is purely a guess.

And I now think the rust discolouration on the top of your head could have been caused by high-temperature gases passing through the break in the head-gasket (ie localised heating) because I wasn't aware of the blown head gasket when I commented on that before.

As for the lifters, they look like they need to be ground smooth to me to remove that pitting. But you need more of an expert than me because there may be surface-hardening work involved. (You don't want the new surface to wear even faster than the old pitted one.) PS. If you can buy new ones then that'll solve it.

And as for that blocked passage way (which I'm assuming is a coolant passageway).... I wonder why it blocked.. Was it just "lack of coolant treatment/changing" or isn't that passageway getting any flow for some reason?



PS. You got the valves out OK so I'm guessing you bought or borrowed a valve-spring-compressor.

 

[ozcrusier]

The point your at now you might as well pull the engine as the cam will need to be removed and while your there you might as well put a full rebuild kit in the old girl. The big ends and mains will more then likely look similar as the metal on the lifters came from somewhere.
Sorry mate.

 

[dkyuss]

Spring compressors were on sale 50% off today. Good coincidence!

The point your at now you might as well pull the engine as the cam will need to be removed and while your there you might as well put a full rebuild kit in the old girl. The big ends and mains will more then likely look similar as the metal on the lifters came from somewhere.
Sorry mate.

Not what I want to hear...... To clarify, metal is missing from the lifters, not added to.
I may pull the cam shaft or at least drop the pan to inspect. but the $$ is not there for that kind of work at the moment.

And I now think the rust discolouration on the top of your head could have been caused by high-temperature gases passing through the break in the head-gasket (ie localised heating)

I assume that the only way for rust to form in this part of the head is for moisture from the cooling system getting in there. Not sure how this equates to 'localized heating' as the steam would have a cooling effect (I assume).

And as for that blocked passage way (which I'm assuming is a coolant passageway).... I wonder why it blocked.. Was it just "lack of coolant treatment/changing" or isn't that passageway getting any flow for some reason?

The plugged port (which I am sure is cooling) in the head was blocked where it mates with the engine block (which blocks the port anyway so I dont think I lost flow of cooling anywhere just a place for it to accumulate and settle?), same place where I found the pile of crumbly sand (visible in the first 2 pics of after I removed the head)



Tomorrow is my one year anniversary with the old beast. Been a long haul (build is in my signature) and not many things I haven't rebuilt yet. At one point, I was planning to have her insured for tomorrow but that dream has long expired.

 

[doug720]

Quite a few 3b engines and parts for sale in the diesel for sale section here on Mud.

A guy is parting one in Creston, BC. Is that close???

 

[dkyuss]

Quite a few 3b engines and parts for sale in the diesel for sale section here on Mud.

A guy is parting one in Creston, BC. Is that close???

I will have to check up the sale section.... Creston is relatively close (7 hr drive). Its a big province!

Cam is likely on its way... Grindable? 2 cams look like this (This is the worst)

Rest look relatively good in my novice opinion, like this.

But I am also noticing the manual indicates I should have spring seats on the head.

Nothing came off. Possible it is still on the head? Can anyone confirm by looking at the depth? To me they would appear to be missing.