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Come on guys, we are all family here...

Docta, it sounds like you have a mechanic who only wants your money and doesn't care to really help you fix your problem. How long have you worked with this guy, and by the way he is acting now...do you really trust him to honestly fix your motor? In all due respect, I would tell the guy you want a 2nd opinion and bring it by a toyota/lexus dealer. Which do you have again, the LC or the LX? Either way no need to trade in for a new one, you have one of the better years anyways, made by araco. Tell the mechanic if he doesn't charge you the original 89 dollars he quoted that you will contact your local better business bureau and file a complaint, that should set him back to the 89 dollars.

What has he done besides drive it around the block (most likely like an ass), and connect a dx computer to it?
 
Multiple misfires?
My thoughts
1. Low fuel pressure, fuel pump giving up the ghost or intermittant, put a pressure gauge on the rail and check it when it is misfiring.
2. Fuel filter blocked, or water/contaminant in fuel system.
3. Ground issue, check all ground straps to engine and ecu.
4. Corrosion or bad connection at ECU or engine bay harness
 
SWUtah said:
Did not realize you were a resident, changes my comment until next year :). If this is a dealership I would be talking to the service manager, but it sounds like you are dealing with a local shop. If they think you are a MD you might be getting the old milk him for all he is worth routine or you just have a guy that is a decent machanic but a poor business man and he feels justified to charge you for his work even though he quoted you $89. You have the option of driving it to the local dealership and have them take control.
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Yeah, I'm hoping it won't come to that. The guy is an outstanding mechanic, but we're kind of stuck on this point. The referral came from someone on this board, too, so I'm really hoping we can get past this. His point of view, which I understand, is that he's in the hole for towing (32 miles but free to the customer if it's over $100 repair) plus this dx which has already cost him a couple hours of a tech's time and tied up his equipment, and suddenly the thing's running OK intermittently, making it that much harder. I can sympathize, but I still insist on keeping all the cards face-up; this never came up on the phone before the tow, and that's just bad business.

I've also experienced your point first-hand: when people hear "MD" it seems to make them reflexively reach into my pocket. Which is why I generally try to hide it outside the hospital. :D
 
1loudLX said:
so you arent getting the MD vanity plates like we have here in NY? :D
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Makes me wanna smack those bastids. Do they think people are impressed? It's going to get them out of a ticket? (OTOH, I'm not above wearing scrubs to traffic court:) :) :) ).

Seriously, though, life is easier if you don't make sure everybody knows you're a doctor. I even know guys who get "MD" printed on their checks.
 
Doc, I hope you didn't spend the money on the induction service. That is what I was telling you is six bucks for a can of sea foam. They have a fancy machine that sprays it in, but for the extra 144.00 dollars you can just buy more sea-foam and not worry about the spraying in.

Also, I wear a suit, mortgage guy, and the mechanic I used to use tried to nail me because I usually wear jeans to his shop. He began justifying all kinds of extra work. He usually has set prices, x=per hour and x= per service. Then all of a sudden he can't figure it out and he has ten hours of labor and is no closer to it being fixed. Unless your toyota dealer deals with LC's all day, take it to lexus. Call and check the prices, we have two in st.louis, one is reasonable the other is ridiculous. But they work on LX's all the time and the 2UZ-FE engine is the exact same. I promise you, it will end up costing you less than you would spend with the guy you are with. Also, if you don't have triple AAA get it today for 55.00 and call them, they will tow it for about 12.00. to Lexus. I did this last time with my dads old ride. It broke down and a shop close by came and pushed it in. They said they could fix and and call us back in and hour. Then they called and said it was 1800.00 for repairs and they had ordered parts. I called AAA and bought the policy and they sent a tow truck, was there in an hour! cost $12.80 To send it to the dealer. A hose had come off and the engine had to much air in it. No Charge. Yet the other guys had DX's 1800.00

My buddy is in your same shoes, He is a neurologist at Barnes in STL Downtown and he get's it coming and going, I help him with his truck too.

Also, if you do need parts, make sure you tell the guys at the shop you will get them yourself and call cruiserdan. Don't let them take you. If they don't know you should't be paying for them to learn, that is what mechanics school is for. You had to pay for your schooling didn't you, probable still are. If he didn't get the education maybe it is time to pay one a mechanic that has.
 
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Tell ya what. I have a fairly good relationship with the Lexus Dealer here in St.Louis. They Service my entire family's vehicles and I take care of everything there. There is a Gentleman named David Cordon at Dave Mungenast Lexus of St.Louis. He is by far one of the most knowledgeable Servicemen I have ever met. Give him a call and ask him to tell you what the codes mean and what he would do about it, as a personal favor to me! If he wants something for it, have him call me he has my number.

-David's Cordon's # is 1-(314)-822-7681

Sincerely Yours,
John Paul Daley II
Best of Luck Doc.
 
justimaginejack said:
Tell ya what. I have a fairly good relationship with the Lexus Dealer here in St.Louis. They Service my entire family's vehicles and I take care of everything there. There is a Gentleman named David Cordon at Dave Mungenast Lexus of St.Louis. He is by far one of the most knowledgeable Servicemen I have ever met. Give him a call and ask him to tell you what the codes mean and what he would do about it, as a personal favor to me! If he wants something for it, have him call me he has my number.

-David's Cordon's # is 1-(314)-822-7681

Sincerely Yours,
John Paul Daley II
Best of Luck Doc.
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You are a lucky man. You have a mechanic you can trust. I am kinda bummed here after the extremely unknowledgable service manager at the local toyota dealership in my town told me a few months ago that in V8s Toyota only recommends the timing belt to be done after 105K and last week, told me that it would be 950 to change the belts and waterpump. She said there are 3 belts in the LC.

Unfortunately, there is no Lexus dealership here.
 
DoctorJay said:
A couple of points, and I do mean this respectfully:

1. I'm a resident for the next year, so I'm on a salary that's probably on the low end of the 100 board

2. When I'm out in practice, I won't be quoting prices for my work. That's what insurance is for.

3. Surgeons get paid for the operation, period. Then there's something called a "90-day global." That means that they assume the patient's surgical care, follow-ups, returns to the OR, etc, without additional reimbursement.

Please knock off the new Lexus, rich-surgeon thing. I'm not rich, and if I'm an *******, it's not because I'm a surgeon. I'm pissed off that I just wrote this guy a check for over a grand for the 90K (labor only) and I'm getting no love from him right now. And I just don't see a new $500 injector fixing a problem in 3 cylinders, and I don't think he does either. If the dx is going to cost $250, fine, just don't ****ing tell me it's going to cost $89 and then triple it when you can't figure it out in 15 minutes.

Peace.
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Doc,

It seems like you are lucky to even find the time to drive a vehicle while you are a resident. I have heard that you guys have to work like 14-16 hour days.

A friend of mine was saying that he used to own a cadillac a long time ago. It used the same exact part as another low end vehicle. But he found out that for the same identical part, it was three times as much for the Cadillac. Crazy...
 
DoctorJay said:
Just off the phone again.

Apparently the p0307 code keeps coming up, but so do the others. Good spark, good signal to the injector, but the oscilloscope is flatline on the injector. He wants to do a fuel system/combustion chamber cleaning ($150) and probably replace the #7 injector ($490). I told him to do the cleaning first; if the injector's bad, there's nothing lost, if it's salvageable, I save $500.

What's troubling me is that there are multiple misfires and I can't imagine there are 3 bad injectors all at once, nor can I see how one bad injector is causing all this trouble.

I'd love to hear any thoughts y'all have...
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My .02

Sounds like #7 is the problem - I'm willing to bet either a bad injector or coil.
You need to have someone look at with a Toy/Lexus scan tool that actually has a misfire counter for each cyl so you can watch it.

The other misfire codes are being created by the changes in accel and decel of the crankshaft caused by the #7 misfire. The ecu has a counter that it compares actual values to to determine which cyls are misfiring. That is why it is so important to see the counter numbers.

Sidenote the misfire counter is so precise, it can pickup all the little bumps in the road, they just program the ecu to ignore them.

Skip the induction/injector clean. Only thing that remotely works is 1/2 gas and 1/2 gm top end engine cleaner mixed in an injector cleaning apparatus that is pressurized with air and the vehicle runs off of. Disconnecting the fuel pump.

Best way to diagnose is take the parts from cyl #7 and put the inj in cyl 1, the coil in cyl 3 and the plug in cyl 5. See which code reappears. Most accurate. you can replace parts but you still don't know if it was it?????

Sorry your guy doesn't know this. If your truck was in my shop it would probably be about 1.5 hrs to perform this diag.

good luck.
 
Well, as of 6:10 PM EST the mechanic was driving it home from work following the injector/fuel system cleaning. He said it was running great so far. I still don't get the part about the #7 injector being dead, and I've lost some faith in this guy. Could go either way -- we'll see tomorrow.

I may check into the Lexus dealer, we've got 1 or 2 here in town. As for the Toyota dealerships:

#1 - giant dealer, service writers don't answer the phones. You leave a voicemail and they call back at their convenience. That doesn't cut it for me.

#2 - Asked about the 90K service, he quotes me a tune-up, tranny, serp belt, etc etc for $650. I ask about the timing belt he hasn't mentioned. "Oh, yeah, I was going to recommend we do that also." Click.

The present mechanic came highly recommended from a guy here on MUD, and I had a great experience with him for the 90K. Cost a bit more than I hoped, but it was done right and he let me source all the parts thru cdan. I don't know what's going on now, but my faith is wearing thin.

As for the hours, it's a mixed bag. I'm in the lab right now, which is why I can take a break from writing chapters and articles a few times a day to surf here. On service, no such thing. The 14-16 hour days are typical, but it's better now than it used to be. There's a rule that we can't work more than 88 hours a week, averaged over 4 wks, and we have to have one day off per week. That rule wasn't in place when I was a junior resident, and I'd routinely break 100 hours a week and my longest stretch was 64 days without a day off. Suffice to say that sucks.

Wearing a suit to the mechanic is just as bad as scrubs. Ditto with a car dealer. I usually wear my Columbia khakis and a plain golf shirt. Just enough to look like I've gone to college, but not enough to put a bullseye on my head. I want them to think I'm an engineer: technically bright and good with math (and cheap, if you go by the engineers in my family). A lot of these guys assume that if you're well-dressed, you don't understand cars, and you don't mind getting hosed a bit on the bill.
 
LEXUSBEN said:
My .02

Sounds like #7 is the problem - I'm willing to bet either a bad injector or coil.
You need to have someone look at with a Toy/Lexus scan tool that actually has a misfire counter for each cyl so you can watch it.

The other misfire codes are being created by the changes in accel and decel of the crankshaft caused by the #7 misfire. The ecu has a counter that it compares actual values to to determine which cyls are misfiring. That is why it is so important to see the counter numbers.

Sidenote the misfire counter is so precise, it can pickup all the little bumps in the road, they just program the ecu to ignore them.

Skip the induction/injector clean. Only thing that remotely works is 1/2 gas and 1/2 gm top end engine cleaner mixed in an injector cleaning apparatus that is pressurized with air and the vehicle runs off of. Disconnecting the fuel pump.

Best way to diagnose is take the parts from cyl #7 and put the inj in cyl 1, the coil in cyl 3 and the plug in cyl 5. See which code reappears. Most accurate. you can replace parts but you still don't know if it was it?????

Sorry your guy doesn't know this. If your truck was in my shop it would probably be about 1.5 hrs to perform this diag.

good luck.
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This is very helpful, and sounds plausible. Thanks. The cleaning is done, I think he did use some sort of high-pressure thing like you're talking about, but I can't be sure. This is the first thing I'll talk to him about tomorrow. By the way, is it possible that one injector could be so dirty that the oscilloscope doesn't pick up any signal? Or does that mean the injector's hosed?
 
LEXUSBEN, I think you were right. The thing started running rough again last night and kept it up this morning. Still the p0307 code with p0302 and p0308 as well. He said he has the scan tool that does the counts but his tech doesn't write those down. However, on the o-scope the #7 injector is bad and the other two (2 and 8) are OK. He talked to Toyota svc hotline and they said definitely replace the #7 injector.

So we're proceeding with that for $490. I still think the dx process has been half-assed at best and the fuel system clean was unecessary. I'm probably going to ask him to abosorb the injector cleaning and charge me for the dx and the injector replacement. Factoring in the tow, his overinflated pricing, and what a pain in the ass this has been all the way around, I'd say that's the solution where nobody 'wins.'

For comparison, I called a toyota dealer. His P/L cost was about the same, but he described it as 'worst-case scenario,' meaning it could be less if it's an eaiser cyl to reach. I have always liked finding good indy mechanics because they do better work at a lower cost than the dealer. Instead I'm chasing my tail for a diagnosis and getting price quotes that only represent the "best-case scenario." I think I'm finished with this guy one way or the other. If this injector doesn't fix it I'll probably take it somewhere else for the rest.
 
Update

I just got back from a week-long business trip, no cell coverage. He replaced the #7 injector and said it ran fine for about 5 miles, then rough again. The 307 code is gone, but 300, 302, and 308 are still there. When I returned his VM, he said the same thing: need to pony up more $$$ for a diagnosis.

So far:

"Diagnosis" $89
Replace #7 injector $490
Fuel system cleaning $150

So, with tax, about $800 and the problem (running rough and CEL) is still there. He says the Toyo hotline is telling him to check the cam and crank position sensors, etc. So I gave him a choice:

1. No more dx fees, just find the problem, call me with an estimate, and I'll decide whether to proceed.

--OR--

2. Charge me for work done, I pick up the car, and we never speak again. I told him that I would probably dispute the diagnosis charge since there's no diagnosis for the problem as yet.

He told me he needed the weekend to think about it. At this point I don't trust the guy at all because of the diagnosis thing. He quoted me $89, then called me whining for more money the next day when it wasn't easy to figure out. He keeps talking about how important customer service and reputation are, and he hasn't done a thing in that direction. I'm giving him a chance to redeem himself, and he has to THINK about it for the weekend. I just spent $1250 for the 90K there in January, and now an undisputed $700 for this, and he has to "think" about what to do next. :mad:
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles Doc.

Have you done what Ben has mentioned?



I'm clueless but thought I"d push this back to the top.
 
At this point, the #7 injector has been replaced, the fuel system cleaned, and it's still running poorly. The mechanic thought about it for the weekend, and offered to let me pick it up (by tow), no charge for any work done. I however really do believe the #7 injector was bad, and told him that I couldn't, in good conscience, let him absorb the bill for that. So I've volunteered to pay him $515 for that part, which represents the part plus 10% discount on the labor.

Fine, and goodriddance. We won't be sending each other Christmas cards this year. He's been reasonable (by offering to waive all charges), and I feel that I have as well (by insisting on paying for what was done).

I'm having it towed to Metro Toyota here in Cleveland this afternoon. I'll let y'all know when they finally figure out what the fxxx is going on with this thing. I'm still happy I didn't buy a Range Rover!:D
 
Real time question

At the Toyota stealership, they're saying they're getting a code from #8 (p0308 - misfire). They cleared it when it came in and there were also codes from 2, 3, and 5 at that point, as well as #8. Swapped coils (or whatever) for the diagnosis, and they're sure that the #8 injector is bad. (Remember the other guy found misfire codes from the 2, 3, and 8 injectors).

They want to replace the other 7 injectors now, since there are at least 1-4 that are bad for sure, and the others may not be far behind. I'm a 'ain't broke don't fix' kind of guy, but the catch is that the labor is 3 hours @$88 whether they replace 1 or all seven. Injectors are about $170 each.

Would you guys replace all 7?
What are the chances that all of them go bad at once?
What would cause this?
What do I need to do to make sure that the new injectors don't get fxxxed up also? I've used nothing but Shell 93 since I bought it a year ago.

I'm probably going to replace all 7, since I need to do 3-4 anyway, and if I come back in a month, I'm out another $300 on labor that I could have saved.
 
i would change all 8 injectors at one time...if i was planning on keeping the truck for a while. I assume you are so just bite it and do all of them.
 
Ironically, my local toyota dealer has a higher labor charge than my local lexus dealer! No kidding, $120/hr to install an alternator on a 4-cyl 22re engine (says the labor rate depends on the job, anywhere from $75-150/hr) while the lexus dealer charges a flat $95/hr.
 
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