READING THE PLUGS - A SECOND OPINION

[love2fly]

Just recently I fixed an over rich carburetor on a 2F motor that was running rich from to high of a float setting and bad needle/seat.
Set mixture /timing /Idle to specs. Time in this over rich condition two hundred to three hundred miles.
Installed new NGK BPR4EY plugs set at .032
Drove 75-80 (max speed 50 mph) miles today and pulled plugs #3 and #5 to read condition.
I have read a lot of plugs before and these look to me as splash over or splash fouled plugs but never seen this before. I know the area around the valves inside the head are probably pretty crappy from the over rich condition that maybe causing this.


Treads - no color
strap - #3 ash gray no timing mark #5 one side light gray the rest darker gray, no timing mark
Ring - very light carbon and areas of complete nothing
Center - white with a slight tinge of tan and a shiny black stain on one side (presume the flash)

Can someone with plug knowledge confirm my findings or am I looking at some other engine condition.



Splash Deposits

Small islands of contaminants on the insulator indicate splash deposits. Replace with new plugs of the correct heat range. The use of fuel additives, carburetor and choke cleaners or other aggressive solvents before installing new plugs is the most common cause of this condition.


Thank you

 

[DougAustinTx]

With the advent of ethanol in our fuel, it became much more difficult to "read" spark plugs in my opinion. In the good old days, we all looked for a nice tan color on the center insulator. Now, I see mostly white, which doesn't tell us much. Also, if you let the engine idle for a few minutes after the speed run, you will actually not be reading the condition of the plugs "at speed" as the ethanol washes the plug at idle. Nothing on your plugs suggests any problem to me.

 

[1911]

In my experience, "splash" deposits of cleaners & additives tend to be white or gray. I would be surprised to see even that much carbon in the photos after only 80 miles on new plugs. Looks to me like you still have unburned fuel, either from being too rich or low compression, timing being off, etc. Not being critical of your work; just my observations. Good luck with diagnoses.

 

[love2fly]

On my research on the new fuels as in Ethanol fuels I am finding that what DougAustinx has said is unfortunately true. Ethanol fuel is not just playing havoc with spark plug reading and gaskets but engine settings also, as mixtures in the older vehicles. Without going into a lot of this and that on ethanol I guess the real thing to say is the writing is on the wall for us older car owners. The plugs do appear to be clean other than the black deposits on the center insulator. I realize that 80 miles is really not a lot to go on for a new plug but this is what was found.
1911 you're not being critical at all, I appreciate your input. As I had mentioned I have never seen a splash over or splash fouled plugs before so I am mostly am going on comparisons on a chart and they look pretty darn close to the description. I can't find much in the way of what colors
are to be found but a shiny black spot as seen in this photo make me think of splash fouling. The only difference is the ring on mine are pretty much clean of carbon and that may be the ethanol washing the plug?? Added some better pictures.
Not sure if I should put in a one step higher plug gapped the same or just go a few hundred miles more and see what takes place in the combustion chamber.

 

[melvinjo]

To me, ethanol/smethnol: If you were tuning up a world class race car for a champion race, I might be concerned about what you are seeing. Super high compressions, aggressive timing curves and super high rpms, you bet, I might be wondering what was going on before I sent a 5mil race car down the track. Yes, ethanol might change the appearance of what we typically might refer to on a photo chart. But I dont beleive to the point where it would really reflect at an "eyeball reading"

Also, reading plugs are supposed to be done with fresh plugs, then haul ass, WOT for about a half mile or so, then check them. But in our case, cruising, thats probably not what we are really looking for. Also, you need to check ALL plugs, not just a couple. Remember, lets also check for not just a carb tune, but lets also check for a possible cylinder/ring or head/valve problem while we are at it

I believe you are correct in that old chamber residue, etc, may be giving you a initial weird read. If thats the case, it should go away pretty quick.

I'd keep it simple: If the vehicle runs good, the exhaust isn't overwhemingly "gassy" and the plugs are a light to medium tan, (or even a little dry soot), you are ok. Even a little rich (not to be confused with oil residue or raw fuel) is a good thing.

Heat range: Again, unless you are a crawler or high end racer, isn't really a concern, as long as you are in the ball park

Other than that, switching to new plugs for reads most likely isn't a cost effective way to read a carb tune, unless you are trying to isolate a problem cylinder

Not beng critical. just my 2cents. TO me, the little spots on the insulators, not a prob. The overall color of the insulator should be a light to medium tan

Drive it!

 

[vtgbeemer]

I am confused. You have solved the rich running issue. Are you experiencing other running issues?

 

[cuencanolenny]

I'm jealous, those plugs look great.

 

[cuencanolenny]

Just recently I fixed an over rich carburetor on a 2F motor that was running rich from to high of a float setting and bad needle/seat.
Set mixture /timing /Idle to specs. Time in this over rich condition two hundred to three hundred miles.
Installed new NGK BPR4EY plugs set at .032
Drove 75-80 (max speed 50 mph) miles today and pulled plugs #3 and #5 to read condition.
I have read a lot of plugs before and these look to me as splash over or splash fouled plugs but never seen this before. I know the area around the valves inside the head are probably pretty crappy from the over rich condition that maybe causing this.


Treads - no color
strap - #3 ash gray no timing mark #5 one side light gray the rest darker gray, no timing mark
Ring - very light carbon and areas of complete nothing
Center - white with a slight tinge of tan and a shiny black stain on one side (presume the flash)

Can someone with plug knowledge confirm my findings or am I looking at some other engine condition.



Splash Deposits

Small islands of contaminants on the insulator indicate splash deposits. Replace with new plugs of the correct heat range. The use of fuel additives, carburetor and choke cleaners or other aggressive solvents before installing new plugs is the most common cause of this condition.


Thank you

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html

I found this article very informative.

 

[love2fly]

Hi sorry Xmas day and all is nuts. Real quick not experiencing any running issues just checking plug to see if there are any more issues.
melvinjo, some good points, as for critical believe me I can take it.
cuencanolenny, I saw the same there is a much better one If I find it again I will post it.
Okay I took the plugs to my fleet manager were all the patrol cars and trucks are worked on. The fleet manager has 25 + years of vehicle repair and maintenance and he said he has never seen any plugs in his career that had that black smudge on the side of the plugs porcelain.
If anything he believes it may be what he calls ethanol wash. It's a jet effect from ethanol cleaning the inside of the head at a high speeds. He was trained at a federal level on the ethanol use in state / county fleet vehicles so he knows his fuels. He said he can't really explain the black smudge only maybe it was an initial start of the wash from high throttle and most has gone out the tailpipe and this is just the residue from the first few miles. The lack of shoot on the ring is strange as he would think it would have a bit more after 80 miles.
He said ethanol fuel in older cars is will drive the old timers crazy depending on the car/truck and part of the country in finding that sweet plug setting, and mixture setting do to the design of the older engines compared to the new fuel injected lightweight computerized aluminum engines. He pointed out that a gentleman in one of his classes told a story of if correct an older MG with multiple carbs in Florida that one day would adjust the carbs the next would be all out of whack due to outside temps and humidity changes and the small percent of 10% ethanol blend. It all came down to just finding a sweet spot for that engines adjustments.
All in all he said just keep an eye on it a few hundred miles or less and read the plugs again and make your adjustments. He did say that altitude changes and humidity will affect the older engines (not by much) so be aware and just live with it and be wary of the summer blends and winter blends at season change. Winter blends fuels in summer can affect things in summer and summer in winter but not by much unless you are a hard core racer.
Next week we are going to bore scope the cylinders just for fun to see how clean in inside is or is not and the cyl walls. Also said that with the situation I had of the float high and raw fuel washing into the cylinders and oil can be a concern but the best part of an older type engine like the good old 2F is it is much stronger than the newer engines, like a tractor he said can take a pretty good beating.

 

[cuencanolenny]

Good information, thanks and I would like to read the link you are referring to. Of course it is much more intense for a performance engine than for these tractor motors. Especially regarding the quality of carburetor. Not a lot I can do with this old Aisan 1bbl. Regarding altitude, it makes such a big difference. With the motor tuned and running fairly well I have made a couple of trips down to Guayaquil where my wife is from. Of course that city is the major port for Ecuador and consequently is at sea level whereas here in Cuenca I am about 8,300 feet and cross over Tres Cruces Pass at 12,000 ft to make the trip. I really don't have much of an issue climbing, other than The Beast has no power and most of it is done in 1st and 2nd gear. Once over the top I can cruise/coast in 3rd but I'm not going much faster due to all of the curves and it is a one lane road and I'm not going to risk going to fast and relying on non-power drum brakes to stop in any kind of a hurry. However, once I get to the bottom of the mountain and head out across the basin I didn't get far and had to pull over and back the timing off because I was pinging. I had to do this three times, the last time was too far as the engine started surging at cruising speed of about 50 mph. Of course then once I am climbing back up to come home I have to stop again and re-adjust. Lord only knows where it is now. While my mechanic could of course set this for me, I will receive a dwell meter and timing light at the end of the month so I can more closely monitor this. I have been running NGK 4 plugs (spec is 5 and so this is a hotter plug) but the mechanic says I should run the Denso plugs, I will try those as soon as my equipment arrives. I have the issue of #1 being low on compression relative to the other five which are relatively close. My plugs will soot up in short order. So at this time I have now sprayed two quarts of water (one quart each time) into the carburetor with the idle screw turned all the way in. I put a cardboard box behind the tail pipe to hopefully see chunks of carbon being blasted out, I haven't. The theory of spraying water into the carburetor while the engine is running is based on what happens with a blown head gasket. If you have ever seen pictures of a cylinder head that has been removed to correct the problem you will note how clean it is from the steam cleaning effect. I use a garden sprayer loaded with water. I can pump about five times before the engine stumbles. I let it recover and hit it again. Takes a few minutes to pump a quart through. I can't say it has improved performance. Certainly not as much as my recent "experiment" of switching from port vacuum to intake vacuum. That has been the best thing I have done for this old motor yet. Merry Christmas.

 

[love2fly]

Interesting, now you are in Ecuador with the vehicle and is the fuel offered at the pump a 10% blend of ethanol or ? I am in know way a carb expert especially on the 1 barrel type so maybe someone will chime in with some information in the possibility of a fix where it maybe a bit less of a hassle to reset a carb every so often. They used to clean aircraft engines years ago kind of the same way, high speed mist water in the carb, even had water injectors on fighters. This is not the link but just one on the spark plug, kind of a race car plug check but works for street cars.
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1749/sparkplugreading.jpg
Merry Christmas

 

[cuencanolenny]

No ethanol in use. I have been told by various folks that premium ($2.09 gallon) is better processed. However, I can't tell you I have noticed any difference beyond price in one or the other so I just run regular (Xtra) because of the low compression motor.

 

[Weber Sarge]

I've directly had the best experience running non-ethanol 91 in mine - better mpg and power overall and the plugs look a lot more consistent like they used to . This engine hates ethanol for sure , same as my old Kohler powered Wheel Horse tractors .
Sarge

 

[love2fly]

Thanks, we just pulled a fresh cleaned set of NGK (BPR4EY) gaped @ .038 and found the same strange half black and half white on the porcelain again after a 90 mile run. Installed cleaned plugs and gaped to .032

Going to give the non ethanol a try and read the plugs. If the same reading might take a look a the timing and dizzy unit.
The only reference I found on the web with plugs like this was a gent that has a BMW motor bike that has the same looking plugs but no real findings. Most of the plug reference chart pictures are not up to date for newer US fuel.

 

[sggoat]

Just recently I fixed an over rich carburetor on a 2F motor that was running rich from to high of a float setting and bad needle/seat.
Set mixture /timing /Idle to specs. Time in this over rich condition two hundred to three hundred miles.
Installed new NGK BPR4EY plugs set at .032
Drove 75-80 (max speed 50 mph) miles today and pulled plugs #3 and #5 to read condition.
I have read a lot of plugs before and these look to me as splash over or splash fouled plugs but never seen this before. I know the area around the valves inside the head are probably pretty crappy from the over rich condition that maybe causing this.


Treads - no color
strap - #3 ash gray no timing mark #5 one side light gray the rest darker gray, no timing mark
Ring - very light carbon and areas of complete nothing
Center - white with a slight tinge of tan and a shiny black stain on one side (presume the flash)

Can someone with plug knowledge confirm my findings or am I looking at some other engine condition.



Splash Deposits

Small islands of contaminants on the insulator indicate splash deposits. Replace with new plugs of the correct heat range. The use of fuel additives, carburetor and choke cleaners or other aggressive solvents before installing new plugs is the most common cause of this condition.


Thank you

I am curious as to the "rich" condition as a result of too high of a float setting. Are you saying if the fuel level in the float bowl gets too high, the mixture will get rich?

 

[cuencanolenny]

@Weber Sarge: The comparison to a Kohler is accurate, tractor engines built for long haul.

 

[love2fly]

Hey sggoat, originally I had a problem with the needle and seat not doing as it should and was filling the float bowl way above the sight glass. This was causing some fuel to drip into the intake manifold after shut down. Also fuel would seep out the pump top down the side when real hot.
While driving it would run too rich (without knowing and not adjusting mixture) fouling the plugs.
New needle and seat fixed the float issue (rebuild) to where I could finally adjust the float to were I could see the fuel level in the center of sight window and no longer ran rich and mixture is right on.
I am now just making sure that I did not wash fuel into the oil system in all that time driving possibly causing ring wear by doing some plug evaluations on the engine and fuel system condition. Just finding some wired black flash on half the plug that I have never seen on any spark plug before.
I am sure all is good just the strange smug on the plug is not really anywhere to be compared to, book or internet.
Do you have a rich carb problem?