foaming your frame?
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- #22
OK, sounds like a bad idea.
Honestly, "if" you could get ahead of the game and apply the foam before the rig was exposed to the elements, i would think i would work fine. But if you allready have material and debris in the frame, it would be nearly impossible to get it all out without possibly dipping the frame or some other method.
Honestly, "if" you could get ahead of the game and apply the foam before the rig was exposed to the elements, i would think i would work fine. But if you allready have material and debris in the frame, it would be nearly impossible to get it all out without possibly dipping the frame or some other method.
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Kidpen, funny you say that. My first job was building kayaks for wilderness systems. We would fill the front and back of the boats with foam.
----Believe me, after kayaking for many years that foam eventually starts to gain weight from water. It will evaporate if left in the sun but none the less water get in there.
What about the docks that float on foam blocks? THose don't water log.
----My folks live a Lake Norman and there is a very good reason that every new peer has those more expensive black plastic sealed floats. Reason to keep the muscrats, ducks, UV from damaging the foam and making the foam porous.
----Believe me, after kayaking for many years that foam eventually starts to gain weight from water. It will evaporate if left in the sun but none the less water get in there.
What about the docks that float on foam blocks? THose don't water log.
----My folks live a Lake Norman and there is a very good reason that every new peer has those more expensive black plastic sealed floats. Reason to keep the muscrats, ducks, UV from damaging the foam and making the foam porous.
I would advise against any foam or sealant. If it doesn't take hold and you create areas that hold water back, or keep it from draining properly its going to rust and quickly. The best thing to do is us a rust inhibitor and spray it in every nook an cranky and in those frame drain holes once a year and keep those drain holes clear so they do what they are designed to do....drain the water away.
If any area you "seal" starts to hold water or keep it from draining your in trouble. I don't care what type of urethane or system you use. The stuff is difficult to use at the best of times and trying to get 100% coverage on a fully assembled truck is asking alot. Possibly if your doing a complete body off the frame rebuild you could get a good enough coating to do what your thinking, but your best option is to spend the time and do it the old fashioned way by keeping the truck clean of mud build up and protected with an inhibitor.
I'm a metallurgist by trade and I've seen some good systems, but none that I would put on my rig as a "cure all" solution.
If any area you "seal" starts to hold water or keep it from draining your in trouble. I don't care what type of urethane or system you use. The stuff is difficult to use at the best of times and trying to get 100% coverage on a fully assembled truck is asking alot. Possibly if your doing a complete body off the frame rebuild you could get a good enough coating to do what your thinking, but your best option is to spend the time and do it the old fashioned way by keeping the truck clean of mud build up and protected with an inhibitor.
I'm a metallurgist by trade and I've seen some good systems, but none that I would put on my rig as a "cure all" solution.
no foam
I have seen two part expanding foam Blow the interior and exterior walls of a house as it cured/expanded (it was not installed as per directions)
The best frame filler/under coating I have found is called "fliud film" contains lanolin (even smells like wool......not from personal experience, smart guys) this stuff is awsome and 2-3 cans will do your underside.
I have seen two part expanding foam Blow the interior and exterior walls of a house as it cured/expanded (it was not installed as per directions)
The best frame filler/under coating I have found is called "fliud film" contains lanolin (even smells like wool......not from personal experience, smart guys) this stuff is awsome and 2-3 cans will do your underside.
Ford did use foam for structural reinforcement in the Excursions I believe and possibly the 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks. I spoke with the company that provided thier foam to them for that exact purpose. If you got a sample of the foam you'd understand. It totally blew my mind that something could be that strong and still very light. I used the stuff that was only about 1/2 as dense on my Integra race car and it made the unibody so solid I couldnt believe it.
And as far as the people having concerns about it sticking, lol .... yeah there's no way that will be a problem in the slightest. This stuff is NASTY. It sticks to EVERYTHING, dosent matter if it's coated in grease. Plus it expands so you'll have it coming out of every hole you dont tape up, and even some you do!
I know that Infinitiy used it in thier Q45's for structural purposes too and it has the side benifit of sound deadening. You have to see this stuff to believe it. It is absolutely incredible.
I have heard stories about a guy who sprayed a can of foam in the framework of his hood and it actually expanded the sheet metal outward. I dont think I would take a chance. Raised dents are not a good thing.
Yes that can happen very easily on sheet metal, but that is not where he plans on putting the foam. If they make a 2 part expanding foam that can make a Toyota frame bulge, I wanna see it!
Here is an portion of an article from an old Sport Compact Car issue that gave me the idea to foam fill my Integra. I spoke with Art Goldman from foamseal and he gave me quite a bit of useful information. I will look up thier web link tomorrow as I have a young woman coming to visit and I gotta get off the computer RIGHT NOW! : )
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0006scc_project_nissan_300zx_part_5/
Foam-Filling the Chassis
In any high-performance car, it is impossible to make the chassis too stiff. The stiffer the chassis, the higher its natural frequency, making the energy imparted to it by bumps less likely to excite the body's structure. A stiffer chassis enables the use of stiffer springs and shocks without hurting the ride. This is because a stiff, non-flexing chassis transfers more force into the suspension where it can be dissipated by the springs and shocks instead of transferring the force to the occupants. A stiff chassis is also more responsive to roll rate tuning for balancing understeer and oversteer. This is one of the reasons why automotive engineers are continually investigating ways to stiffen chassis without adding weight.
In a final bit of reengineering to stiffen the body, we injected the chassis with catalyzed rigid structural polyurethane foam. Structural foam, in the 2 lb per cubic foot density that we used, can stiffen chassis members up to 40 percent.
Higher densities of foam can increase stiffness by up to 300 percent. Since we cannot retool custom parts to redo the Z's body, we figured that this would be an excellent, low-cost way of greatly increasing chassis stiffness. Injecting foam is not a new technique for chassis stiffening. The Infiniti Q45 uses this sort of foam in some of its chassis members to increase stiffness, as do a few other premium cars. In fact, the foam we chose is the foam recommended to repair damaged Q45s.
To get the correct foam for our project, we contacted Art Goldman, Foamseal's automotive product manager and author of an SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) paper on the use of structural foam for the stiffening of automotive unibody structures. We used Foamseal's two-component foam kit, p/n 11-22 to fill the main members of the chassis. Like we mentioned earlier, Foamseal is the supplier that I-CAR, a national certification group for quality auto repair, recommends for the repair of damaged, foam-filled chassis. The Foamseal kit uses a two-part catalyzed polyurethane foam, which quickly cures into rigid, waterproof, closed-cell foam. To prep the car, we carefully masked off all painted areas anywhere where the foam could drip. As this sort of foam is a thermosetting catalyzed plastic, we realized it could be icky if it spilled on paint or any part of the car's interior. This foam is nasty stuff. It is impervious to all known solvents and cleaners.
Rubber gloves must be worn. Get some of it on your hands and it will stay there for more than 3 weeks--don't ask how we know. Do not get this stuff on your paint. Wear old clothes; we ruined ours while learning how to handle the product. We injected the foam into the rocker panels and frame rails of Project Z through existing bolt and drain holes. When injected, the foam reacts like shaving cream and quickly expands to fill the empty space. You can judge how much foam to add by watching its expansion progress through some of the holes. Once injected, the foam expands and begins to cure in about a minute so you need to work fast and plan how you inject the foam before you start.
The life of the foam kit is limited to a few hours once the seal is broken. We filled all of the Z's unibody frame members using five foam kits. When foaming a chassis, you must remember the wires and other lines that pass through the chassis must be relocated or they will be entombed forever.
We were amazed at how this simple procedure improved the performance of the car. The chassis now almost feels like it has a roll cage. A sloped driveway can be driven up sideways with nary a creak. Even though the Z already has a pretty tight chassis, it feels more solid. The ride has improved and road noise has been reduced noticeably. We bet that the car will be even more responsive to chassis tuning measures in the future. If you are a slalom racer, a road racer, have a lowered car or even just want a smoother ride; foaming is a worthy, easy-to-do modification. Foamseal has foams in densities as high as 10 lbs per square foot if you desire to make things even stiffer.
Do not--I repeat--do not attempt to use cheap, hardware-store canned foam. This is not the same thing, and if injected into your chassis, will form a gummy mass that won't dry. Foamseal foam is a professional grade foam, which although it is a little unforgiving to cleanup mistakes, has superior mechanical properties and catalytic curing so it will dry even in an enclosed space.
These changes are continually improving and refining Project Z as we eagerly await our motor. We still have some more parts that we will install and review in upcoming issues. Stay tuned, the best is yet to come!
Nissan 300ZX front left side view
Nissan 300ZX front side view
Nissan 300ZX front left side view
The precision-ground washers shown here are used to control the flow through the piston. By using different washers stacked in different configurations, they can be tuned like little round leaf springs to hold the valve closed under different pressure and velocity conditions.
An assortment of Stillen parts are holding together the back of our Z. The HICAS eliminator (top) gets rid of the rear-wheel steering, the Stillen rear strut tower brace adds some much needed rigidity in the weak hatch area, and finally, Stillen rear adjustable upper control arms allow us to get rear wheel camber back where we want it, despite our low ride height.
The Tein upper shock mount shown here eliminates the stock squishy rubber mount, replacing it with a spherical bearing. Also show are the external damping adjusters. The red knob controls rebound damping, the blue knob controls the compression damping.
The Foamseal Two Component Foam Kit consists of two easy-to-use aerosol containers of material with a nozzle and a mixing chamber.
As the foam cures, it expands with the excess coming out of the holes where it was injected. Note how it is important to mask carefully. If you accidentally use too much foam, you could have much more coming out of the holes than we did. If it gets in the carpet, it will n
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0006scc_project_nissan_300zx_part_5/
Foam-Filling the Chassis
In any high-performance car, it is impossible to make the chassis too stiff. The stiffer the chassis, the higher its natural frequency, making the energy imparted to it by bumps less likely to excite the body's structure. A stiffer chassis enables the use of stiffer springs and shocks without hurting the ride. This is because a stiff, non-flexing chassis transfers more force into the suspension where it can be dissipated by the springs and shocks instead of transferring the force to the occupants. A stiff chassis is also more responsive to roll rate tuning for balancing understeer and oversteer. This is one of the reasons why automotive engineers are continually investigating ways to stiffen chassis without adding weight.
In a final bit of reengineering to stiffen the body, we injected the chassis with catalyzed rigid structural polyurethane foam. Structural foam, in the 2 lb per cubic foot density that we used, can stiffen chassis members up to 40 percent.
Higher densities of foam can increase stiffness by up to 300 percent. Since we cannot retool custom parts to redo the Z's body, we figured that this would be an excellent, low-cost way of greatly increasing chassis stiffness. Injecting foam is not a new technique for chassis stiffening. The Infiniti Q45 uses this sort of foam in some of its chassis members to increase stiffness, as do a few other premium cars. In fact, the foam we chose is the foam recommended to repair damaged Q45s.
To get the correct foam for our project, we contacted Art Goldman, Foamseal's automotive product manager and author of an SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) paper on the use of structural foam for the stiffening of automotive unibody structures. We used Foamseal's two-component foam kit, p/n 11-22 to fill the main members of the chassis. Like we mentioned earlier, Foamseal is the supplier that I-CAR, a national certification group for quality auto repair, recommends for the repair of damaged, foam-filled chassis. The Foamseal kit uses a two-part catalyzed polyurethane foam, which quickly cures into rigid, waterproof, closed-cell foam. To prep the car, we carefully masked off all painted areas anywhere where the foam could drip. As this sort of foam is a thermosetting catalyzed plastic, we realized it could be icky if it spilled on paint or any part of the car's interior. This foam is nasty stuff. It is impervious to all known solvents and cleaners.
Rubber gloves must be worn. Get some of it on your hands and it will stay there for more than 3 weeks--don't ask how we know. Do not get this stuff on your paint. Wear old clothes; we ruined ours while learning how to handle the product. We injected the foam into the rocker panels and frame rails of Project Z through existing bolt and drain holes. When injected, the foam reacts like shaving cream and quickly expands to fill the empty space. You can judge how much foam to add by watching its expansion progress through some of the holes. Once injected, the foam expands and begins to cure in about a minute so you need to work fast and plan how you inject the foam before you start.
The life of the foam kit is limited to a few hours once the seal is broken. We filled all of the Z's unibody frame members using five foam kits. When foaming a chassis, you must remember the wires and other lines that pass through the chassis must be relocated or they will be entombed forever.
We were amazed at how this simple procedure improved the performance of the car. The chassis now almost feels like it has a roll cage. A sloped driveway can be driven up sideways with nary a creak. Even though the Z already has a pretty tight chassis, it feels more solid. The ride has improved and road noise has been reduced noticeably. We bet that the car will be even more responsive to chassis tuning measures in the future. If you are a slalom racer, a road racer, have a lowered car or even just want a smoother ride; foaming is a worthy, easy-to-do modification. Foamseal has foams in densities as high as 10 lbs per square foot if you desire to make things even stiffer.
Do not--I repeat--do not attempt to use cheap, hardware-store canned foam. This is not the same thing, and if injected into your chassis, will form a gummy mass that won't dry. Foamseal foam is a professional grade foam, which although it is a little unforgiving to cleanup mistakes, has superior mechanical properties and catalytic curing so it will dry even in an enclosed space.
These changes are continually improving and refining Project Z as we eagerly await our motor. We still have some more parts that we will install and review in upcoming issues. Stay tuned, the best is yet to come!
Nissan 300ZX front left side view
Nissan 300ZX front side view
Nissan 300ZX front left side view
The precision-ground washers shown here are used to control the flow through the piston. By using different washers stacked in different configurations, they can be tuned like little round leaf springs to hold the valve closed under different pressure and velocity conditions.
An assortment of Stillen parts are holding together the back of our Z. The HICAS eliminator (top) gets rid of the rear-wheel steering, the Stillen rear strut tower brace adds some much needed rigidity in the weak hatch area, and finally, Stillen rear adjustable upper control arms allow us to get rear wheel camber back where we want it, despite our low ride height.
The Tein upper shock mount shown here eliminates the stock squishy rubber mount, replacing it with a spherical bearing. Also show are the external damping adjusters. The red knob controls rebound damping, the blue knob controls the compression damping.
The Foamseal Two Component Foam Kit consists of two easy-to-use aerosol containers of material with a nozzle and a mixing chamber.
As the foam cures, it expands with the excess coming out of the holes where it was injected. Note how it is important to mask carefully. If you accidentally use too much foam, you could have much more coming out of the holes than we did. If it gets in the carpet, it will n
Yes that can happen very easily on sheet metal, but that is not where he plans on putting the foam. If they make a 2 part expanding foam that can make a Toyota frame bulge, I wanna see it!
He was also talking about putting it in the door panels in the original post.
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- #30
He was also talking about putting it in the door panels in the original post.
Yea, but i was quickly pointed to the utter stupidity of such an action.