Engine swap taboos for USA (1 Viewer)

[slcfj62]

With all the great engine swaps that can be done (V-8, diesel, etc) I have been mulling over my options. I really like the Isuzu diesel and have been leaning that direction. So I decided to check with my local emissions control people to see what the regulations are in this regard. There are a lot of opinions on this subject, so I went straight to the source and checked with the government people. Well, this is what they said: In order for an engine swap to meet Federal Regulations (EPA), the engine must be the same year or newer as the vehicle, AND the engine must have been a factory option for that year vehicle. So, let's say I have a vehicle that could have been purchased new with either a 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder engine. Let's say I own a 6 cylinder version with a blown engine and I had access to an 8 cylinder engine of a type that was available for my vehicle when it was manufactured. I could legally do the swap as long as I also swapped in all the 8 cylinder emissions controls. It then would have to pass emissions testing before it could be registered.

Now here is the heartbreaker. Federal regulations prohibit swapping in an engine that was not an option for that vehicle AS IT WAS SOLD NEW IN THE USA. That means ALL of the engine swaps we are doing violate Federal Regulations--even the Toyota Diesels. Right now, the Federal Government is allowing the States to register our rigs with swapped engines as long as they meet the local emissions controls requirements, even though this is a clear violation of the Federal Regs. But that can change with an arbitrary stroke of the EPA pen. And once a non-standard engine has been swapped into a vehicle, it is considered a "tampered vehicle." At least in the state of Utah and in Salt Lake County, it must then have the annual emissions inspection done by the County Health Department and not an independent inspection station.

You may have now or soon will have an alternate engine in your rig, and you may not even be required to have emissions inspections done where you live, but that can change very quickly. All that has to happen is for the EPA to sign an edict, and you won't be able to register your vehicle anywhere. The requirement for a visual inspection of your vehicle is all it would take for your rig to be rejected. There will be no "grandfather" option either because it's not legal anywhere in the US right now, they just haven't decided to test the political winds by enforcing it yet. The same can be said for de-smogging your rig. You may be getting away with it right now, but if the EPA decides to require a visual inspection before you can register your vehicle....well, let's just say there will be a spike in demand for emissions control junk.

So that's the word. For myself, I would like to be able to drive my FJ62 on the highways for another 10 or 20 years. The way things are going with the "greenhouse gases" discussion, I am pretty sure they are going to clamp down sooner than later. So, I guess I'll be planning for an overhaul of my 3FE rather than that Diesel engine I really wanted.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Well isn't that depressing.

 

[Hank]

Looking for black helicopters, making foil hat...
Seriously, one stroke of the pen that would end up in legislative hell for many years. If this nation comes to the point where the governement can take away my trucks, they had better take away my gubs first. That isn't going to happen. Swap away, stay within your local regs and enjoy.

 

[slcfj62]

Well isn't that depressing.

Totally depressing.

Looking for black helicopters, making foil hat...
Seriously, one stroke of the pen that would end up in legislative hell for many years. If this nation comes to the point where the governement can take away my trucks, they had better take away my gubs first. That isn't going to happen. Swap away, stay within your local regs and enjoy.

I would like to hope that you are right, but my gut says you are wrong. Look how they sneaked in the low sulphur diesel, and ethanol in the gasoline, etc. They do this stuff without fanfare, and by the time it becomes common knowledge, the wheels are already in motion and the centrifugal force is too much to overcome.

They'd also like to take away your gubs and your guns too, but there are a couple of watch dog organizations that track that pretty closely and raise the alarm before it gets off the ground. I don't think we have an engine swap lobby back in Washinton DC. They already made it illegal without much opposition. So the law is already on their side. They just haven't decided when to start enforcing it.....yet.

 

[NCFJ]

I don't know how far I would believe that the OPs scenerio would go in dealing with the EPA. Several years back a group of guys got together at the SEMA show talking about the strict rules in CA regarding emissions and how they were effecting the hot rod world, where engine swaps are the norm.

Some engineers from GM decided to do something about is and created a crate engine version of the LS series of engines, the EROD, LS4 I believe. They delt closely with the EPA in this developement process. The end result was a crate motor that will pass any EPA test in the country, CA included. Ford has also come out with their own version.

The bottom line in this, just like pretty much anything else comes down to money. The automotive modification market in this country is HUGE! When that kind of money is involved you can bet the EPA is not going to be able to just jump in with the stroke of a pen and end all engine transplants. With companies like GM and Ford jumping in and spending the kind of money it takes to develope these packages you can bet that following the letter of the EPA law will be a long time in comming, if ever.

Granted you may not be able to just throw any engine in any car and call it good. I think that they will most likely have to pass an EPA mandated test. I would think that if the vehicle passes the EPA tests required, whether the powerplant was available for that specific vehicle or not will be a moot point.

There are simply too many vehicles out there with engine swaps already done and in use for no provision for grandfathering in said vehicles in some manner. If I have a vehicle that has had an engine swap and has passed emmisions in my state only to find out tomorrow that I have to swap the engine back out to pass a new emmisions standard I do not see happening. Precidence has been set. The state has already approved the emissions of that vehicle. THe law suits that would stem from that kind of action would be overwhelming for state and federal governments.

One man's opinion.

 

[MANUCHAO]

No doubt the info you posted is correct and disappointing....

I at least will have fond memories of driving up many steep passes at a good click on a fully loaded 25+ year old rig... and will continue driving with the biggest grin on my face until this laws come up take effect and put my rig away.... (not likely in my life time.... me thinks).

 

[lehiguy]

The Feds can kiss my a$$ right in the crack. When they start to resemble a governmental body that can function and pass logical legislation, then maybe I'll care. Untill then, heres to Hussien Obama and his clueless goons.

Swap in whatever you can get past the locals. The Feds are impotent at best.

 

[Hank]

Lobbying group for motor swaps=check Ever heard of SEMA, aren't you a member? Why not? Same type of group as NRA. If you don't stand up for your beliefs who will? Will you accept any sanction from "they" or will you realize that government by the people means you have to stand up for what you believe in?

Nobody snuck in low sulphur diesel, read! Industry mags had been talking about it for many year before it became required. Did catalytic converters sneak up on you? How about DPF? Technology and emission reduction go hand in hand. The info on the next latest and (possibly) greatest thing is always out there.

You stay with your gut. I'll stay with logic and reason.

Big government will not and can not enforce this set of federal regs. They can't even keep tabs on the heavy trucking industry. It is unsustainable, more so than social security.

I suppose I am more in tune with this being active in the industry. I don't know squat about the SLC area (other than it is beautiful) but I think you are safe. For tech content:

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf

Specialty Equipment Market Association

 

[AndersN]

Now I am probably wrong but I swore there was a way to get a diesel swap registered if you say its experimental and runs off veggie oil? Wouldent the feds up there be happy that you were using alternative fuels?

 

[Rigger]

Trying to predict what the Feds will do on this (or any other) issue is gonna be tough. They could easily enact laws that will make life difficult for engine swappers, but I wouldn't plan on it. I am running my 3FE for now, but I would not hesitate to do an engine swap if I was so inclined. For me, the cost of the swap is the issue, not the Feds.

 

[slcfj62]

I suppose I am more in tune with this being active in the industry. I don't know squat about the SLC area (other than it is beautiful) but I think you are safe. For tech content:

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf

Specialty Equipment Market Association

Thank you for those links. And no, I never heard of SEMA before this thread. If I do it, this will be my first engine swap. I'm sure there were people who knew about the low sulphur diesel, probably the removal of ZDDP from engine oil as well. But that didn't stop it. The vast majority of us were in the dark, so we couldn't mobilize. I really hope you all are right about this. I really want to believe we still have at least an illusion of freedom. And I really want my Isuzu engine. One more reason to vote the rascals out methinks.

 

[Hank]

On the contrary the feds do not care for alternative fuels that they do not have their hands in. You see if you get together with a group of like minded friends and make bio-diesel and then run the highway you are not paying taxes (in most reported cases) on each gallon of fuel you purchase. If you aren't paying taxes, the federal government does not care for what you are doing.
http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub96.pdf- one of a dozen citings for tax issues related to alternative automotive fuels.

 

[lehiguy]

The only people you have to worry about are the Utah County Health Department's Division of Air Quality. I had a lengthy conversation with them a few years back. Since I went from a carbed motor to an injected V8, the only thing they required of me was to pass a one-time inspection by them. They said they would look for ony a few things; 02 feedback (02 sensor to computer) a cat and evaporative eimmissions. If that was present and it would pass a taipipe test, I was in. They issue a certificate that would then allow any future inspections at any facility that I choose. I did, however, find and even better solution; I gave the title to my brother who lives in Wyoming and congratulated him on his newly acquired Land Cruiser. No more BS of any kind.

 

[2mbb]

I'm not an expert, but it is my impression that in California (still part of the Federation of the United States) the swapped engine has to be the same model year or newer and it has to have been offered in the class of vehicle. the FJ60 is classified as a passenger vehicle, so engines out of your model year or newer passenger vehicles with the engine OEM smog are legal.

I'm not really sure what enforcement jurisdiction the Feds have since vehicle registration is handled at the state level.

 

[Kurtis]

Half the people you talk to know nothing. Take the chevy e rod ncfj was talking about for example. You can swap that engine into any vehicle you want. It is epa approved everywhere and in any vehicle you place it in regardless of classification.

If you search mud threads like this pop up about every six month with someone saying you can't do something because some Half knowing government employee told them something.
If you have enough money you can do whatever you want. Luckily for the rest of us people with money like to do the same things we do.

 

[chitown40]

While the letter of the law has the potential to be depressing, the good news is that the Feds don't have the money right now to go on an all-out enforcement of vehicle motor swaps. There are bigger fish to fry.

When they acutally save up a buck or two to hire a bunch of inspectors to enforce the laws, they will end up hiring political hacks that can't tell a diesel motor from a Chevy V8.

So, just save your 3FE emblem before you use the old motor as your boat anchor and replace that Isuzu badge when the time comes.

 

[Cookiemonster]

So how does that apply in a "kit car" scenario?

Say I go to Canada and purchase an 80 series diesel, disasemble it and import it as a kit car. Can it legally be registered with that engine as such, or can you mod an exsisting truck with a diesel "kit" engine as such attach a new vin to it and register it as a kit car?

What are the rules pertaining to kit cars?

 

[Cookiemonster]

Legislation should be a little more loose on kit cars I would hope, and I'mn hoping someone here can answer with respects to your experience with SLC/Utah & fed gov't.

Hope I'm not stealing thread.

 

[Methusalem]

What is it with those "greenouse gasses" anyway? When a big volcano throws up for a few days, it produces more bad gasses than the car population of the United States and Europe together in a year.
Okay, you don't want smog in the big cities. I get that. But I think in the end it's all about the money.

 

[MANUCHAO]

I had a friend purchase a kit car (ariel atom)and after getting it and driving it to CA..
He got a smog exemption.
For what I remember him saying there are only 100 exemptions like this given per year..in the whole state.
Dont ask me what are the requirements but he was lucky to get one........
So, to answer your question.. you might want to call your local dept of motor vehicles and ask about a car kit..