Brakes have defeated me, on to the Stealership

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CO_Hunter

CO_Hunter

10 Year 15 Year
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Threads
141
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2,229
Location
Idaho
I didn't want to hi-jack Luke's thread so here is the deal. This is unbelievably frustrating. I have read they are hard to bleed. I rebuilt the 2 front calipers, figured I had a sticking caliper since it was pulling to the left. Brake pedal was fine prior to this. I bleed front lines firm pedal but once engine is running it's soft. So I bleed the rears and the LSPV. I have read everything there is to read on bleeding 80's on MUD, ABS should not be an issue. Re-bled the whole system again tonight, pedal is not much different when running as compared to when I first bleed the fronts. Used the manual pump hold method with :princess: Used vacuum and the new Motive (which is cool by the way). Then I used the pedal pumping with power bleeder. I have never had this much trouble bleeding brakes, there is no air coming out and fluid is nice and clear :bang::mad: I just don't understand it. I guess I'll ask the local Stealerships for LC discount and go from there. I would rather have them on the hook for a set price rather than someone like Justin getting stuck trying to figure it out.
 
CO_Hunter said:
I didn't want to hi-jack Luke's thread so here is the deal. This is unbelievably frustrating. I have read they are hard to bleed. I rebuilt the 2 front calipers, figured I had a sticking caliper since it was pulling to the left. Brake pedal was fine prior to this. I bleed front lines firm pedal but once engine is running it's soft. So I bleed the rears and the LSPV. I have read everything there is to read on bleeding 80's on MUD, ABS should not be an issue. Re-bled the whole system again tonight, pedal is not much different when running as compared to when I first bleed the fronts. Used the manual pump hold method with :princess: Used vacuum and the new Motive (which is cool by the way). Then I used the pedal pumping with power bleeder. I have never had this much trouble bleeding brakes, there is no air coming out and fluid is nice and clear :bang::mad: I just don't understand it. I guess I'll ask the local Stealerships for LC discount and go from there. I would rather have them on the hook for a set price rather than someone like Justin getting stuck trying to figure it out.
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The only failure points are the calipers, should be no air anywhere else since you did not fiddle with anything else, did you fill the calipers manually before you installed them? when you have them out and fill them manually you can shake them around and see if any air got trapped somewhere...should escape from the hole where the bleeder valve goes...then tighten the valve and install the caliper, then bleed normally...a full rebuild on a caliper sometimes traps air pockets in places which causes problems.
 
Sounds like a bad master cylinder to me, I know you said it was fine before you started, but stranger things have happened. Did you move the brake pedal with the system dry? That could have wiped out the seals in you master. Or maybe you didn't bench bleed the master before you started. Did you crack the lines at the master before you moved on to the rest of the system?

NEVER GIVE UP!!! :deadhorse:
 
FJ005 said:
when you have them out and fill them manually you can shake them around and see if any air got trapped somewhere...should escape from the hole where the bleeder valve goes...then tighten the valve and install the caliper, then bleed normally...a full rebuild on a caliper sometimes traps air pockets in places which causes problems.
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I didn't do that, it seems after that process putting the calipers back on you would still let air back into the system as you have to put the banjo fitting back on? But I agree my guess is somehow there is still air in the caliper? I have gone through 3 quarts of brake fluid.

black95 said:
Sounds like a bad master cylinder to me, I know you said it was fine before you started, but stranger things have happened. Did you move the brake pedal with the system dry? That could have wiped out the seals in you master. Or maybe you didn't bench bleed the master before you started. Did you crack the lines at the master before you moved on to the rest of the system?
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I can pump up the brakes a bit and get some additional pressure, so I m not thinking it is MC, plus it is firm with engine off. Didn't run it dry and had block of wood under the pedal when working it. Didn't bench bleed, no need since it didn't go dry. During the rebuild I clamped two pieces of aluminum on the banjo fitting to stop the fluid. I did loose some taking off and reinstalling the calipers but not that much.

black95 said:
Damn Toyota gremlins! :mad:
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I agree, maybe we need a gremlin support group meeting with :beer:
 
Not to high jack the tread again but in response to Luke's never give up mentality.



I have also heard the saying that if you find yourself riding a dead horse it's best to get off :doh:

It's good to be back in the US. I have been on a bit of a work overload since my vacation in early July. I am thinking of going to Denver on Saturday but I also want to go wheeling since my Cruiser has made one trip to the car wash since June and other than that it's been protecting the yard.
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My $0.02 - I'm with Luke in that it may not be a caliper problem at this point. When I replaced my calipers, it was pretty straight forward ... put a vacuum bleeder on it and pulled about a cup of fluid through it and it was fine.
 
Don't take it to the stealership; call Don at Bear Automotive. Don was a charter member of our club and FJ-60 and FJ-40 owner. 591-5700, ask for Don. He knows how to install ARBs, also.

Vic
 
EricG said:
My $0.02 - I'm with Luke in that it may not be a caliper problem at this point. When I replaced my calipers, it was pretty straight forward ... put a vacuum bleeder on it and pulled about a cup of fluid through it and it was fine.
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That is what I was expecting. I do think our calipers are different.

Michael Hanson said:
Check that master cylinder. MIke
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By check do you mean for proper function or for air?

Goslow said:
Don't take it to the stealership; call Don at Bear Automotive. Don was a charter member of our club and FJ-60 and FJ-40 owner. 591-5700, ask for Don. He knows how to install ARBs, also.
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Appreciate the lead but I wouldn't want to stick an independent mechanic with this problem, I'm not sure what more they could do, easily anyhow. I wouldn't want to agree to a system bleed and have them spend hours on it.

Maybe I'll do some more tonight, that horse is pretty close to dead Chuck and I'm ready to get off...
 
I've had my share of gremlins in my 96' too. When I had it a Aspen Auto Clinic in March for the stupid wire harness problem, the mechanic (who used to work for a Toyota dealership and knew a lot of the common issues) said that my master cylinder was developing a vacuum leak and that would result in having a soft pedal sometimes. I really only notice it backing out of my driveway in the morning sometimes when i get a soft pedal and a weird grunting sound from the brakes but it quickly goes away and won't repeat till several days later. Also sometimes when going over a speed bump near work i'll lose brake pedal pressure momentarily. The mechanic said I would have to eventually replace the master cylinder since there is no other way to fix the vacuum leak. Does this sound familiar/ logical to anyone else???
 
Tried a few more things. Took off the front wheels beat the calipers with rubber mallet then took them off and spun them around all while the Motive pressure bleeder was running. A couple tiny bubbles off at the start (may have been in the tube) and that was it. So I bleed the MC and had a :censor: of a time getting the rear line re-attached. Didn't get a chance to re-bleed, I'll do that tomorrow.
 
Bleed the entire system again, got some air out, I'm guessing from MC disconnect. But still little change in the pedal...I've just had it....:censor::censor:
 
Took it for a test drive out to Calhan today. The brakes do bite, but sure feels like air in the system. It doesn't pull to the left anymore, guess the caliper re-build was good.
 
You have ani-lock brakes (ABS) when I bled my brakes I had to bleed the ABS system also. It can pick up air and it will not properly bleed until you run the motor. I ran mine with jumper wires off the battery. I am sure there is a more elegant way to run the ABS motor. I'll have to dig out my book, then I could give you the exact pins to apply power to.
 
David,

From what I read on MUD there is nothing definitive if activating ABS pump will make a difference, seems like it would. FSM says nothing about it either. It seems like between the ABS and LSPV ther are lots of places for air to hide. The wiring colors are likely different on mine and yours but if you have the pins let me know, I'll cross check my manuals and I can keep it in mind for next time.

I just couldn't spend more time on it. Got back late last night from long western CO road trip, hiking, fishing camping, exploring trip with just the wife and me.
 
Ok, I have an idea.......Let me borrow it, and I'll take it out wheeling and see if I can get it on some crazy side hills and bad angles--maybe even upside down, then that air hiding in the lines has to come out! :idea: Brilliant! I'll give it back in a week, I promise.......
 
black95 said:
Ok, I have an idea.......Let me borrow it, and I'll take it out wheeling and see if I can get it on some crazy side hills and bad angles--maybe even upside down, then that air hiding in the lines has to come out! :idea: Brilliant! I'll give it back in a week, I promise.......
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Dang, if you had only come up with that a couple of days ago :doh: And I know you can get things upside down:hillbilly:
 
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