Dozer's Grey Ghost Gets a Vortec (FJ62/5.3L/4L60E) (1 Viewer)

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Dozer18

SILVER Star
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Threads
20
Messages
344
Location
Springfield, VA
Hello Everyone,

Thanks for stopping by! I tend to talk a lot, so give me a few minutes and allow me to introduce myself, my brother, and the Grey Ghost. I'm a career Navy guy approaching the end of said career; for the last 18 years I've mostly been known as Dozer. I acquired the Grey Ghost, an '88 FJ62 w/auto, from the second owner in San Diego back in 2006. The second owner, a kid who couldn't afford the care and feeding of an old '62, had owned it less than a year; I was a slightly older kid myself with a CJ7 and some extra Navy scratch who had always wanted an FJ6X. Though it had been rode hard in SoCal, it hadn't been put up wet, and it served as an admirable DD for the next 7 years, getting me through the birth of a daughter and a few tougher years. In June 2012, with an overseas move looming, my 5yo daughter and I, with heavy hearts and no A/C (it had been busted since I bought it), drove it from DC to my Dad's shop in Georgia, where it has mostly sat until now. This is where my brother comes in...

@Dsellers (Dakota), my less-better-looking-but-infinitely-better-wrench-turning younger brother :grinpimp:, is ready to help transform the Grey Ghost into the TLC we dream about. I'm still overseas but preparing to return this summer, and he wants to take on the Vortec Swap - something that used to seem impossible but has become quite attainable thanks to this forum! Kota has been learning the ropes in the family shop for the last few years and has become an impressive wrencher. He particularly enjoys custom 4WD work and is making a name for himself in our SE Georgia hometown doing just that. This project will be a learning experience for us both, but we hope to leverage the vast knowledge and experience on this forum to successfully do the job in a reasonable amount of time. Kota will be doing most of the wrench-turning while I supervise and provide support (and money) from 9,000 miles away - the proverbial 9,000-mile screwdriver (wrench?).

Before getting started, a huge shout-out to those that came before us - and those that have recently done this - that inspired us and made us believe that we, too, could do this: @iaintscared1969, @MANUCHAO, @theron, @torfab, @NCFJ, @rover67, @dbleon, @FJ60Cam, and so many others. Currently following along with @fjeng and @35inchoverdrive and others as we get started. There's no question that this would be impossible for us without this forum.

Last thing: Kota and I have scoured these swap threads and taken pages and pages of notes. However, it gets confusing sometimes parsing between FJ60 and FJ62 specifics, and it gets difficult to keep up with who put what year-model 5.3 into which 60 or 62. There are so many differences once you get into all the variations and specifics. That's to say nothing of the things that are subject to personal opinion when there are many ways to accomplish a task. So, when we ask a question, seek input, or request information or recommendations, it's NOT because we haven't done our homework. Rather, we've probably done too much homework and have confused ourselves. Most likely, we've just seen so many ways to skin a cat that we're trying to solve a particular problem related to our particular truck and new drivetrain. That said, please be patient and don't immediately refer us to the "Search Feature."

So, please sit back, pop some corn :popcorn:, put on some Lil Wayne or George Straight or whatever puts you in your zone and enjoy the show. We very much welcome advice, solicited and unsolicited, and very much want to give back in real time and in the future so please ask questions (or call us out) as we go. My next post will discuss where we are and where we're going....
 
One piece of advise............

Money spent up front on higher quality equipment will pay for itself ten fold down the line. Build with maintenance and repair in mind.

Here is a prime example

A shop charged my customer to install a trans cooler, it leaked and this is what I found. In order to be tight enough not to leak the 45° pointed up, not down as required.
10606091_1133911843306372_8395356039149678341_n.jpg


A little more money for parts and no more time, AN fittings are also reusable.
1375645_1133911859973037_5338143950670247337_n.jpg


Granted, this is only one small detail, but it is the accumulation of those small details that will be the difference of you out using your truck on the weekends or under the hood "tweaking" all those little details that seemed insignificant when you were doing the swap.

Good luck with the swap :)
 
If I didn't bore you already, thanks for sticking with us! Before I get into our specific build, let's talk goals.

I need this truck ready by late July, so we've got about four months to get it done - to the 90% solution. Doesn't have to be perfect. In the interest of full disclosure, and to better help others considering this swap, I'll be open about my budget as well. The goal for now is to have a reliable daily driver, capable of weekend excursions to the National Forest or to the beach - NOT to build a hardcore off-roader or a rock crawler. Nothing against that, but this FJ is more about making memories at the shore or around the campfire, and for now that's what we are thinking about with every dollar and every hour that goes into this. My wife has a vote, too, and she votes for long weekend drives from DC to the Outer Banks with paddleboards on top or to the Shenandoahs with a cargo bay full of camping gear. This is about making memories for the kids (18, 13, and 8) that they'll want to recreate - with the Grey Ghost - for their kids. Eventually, I'd like to build her up to be capable of an extended trip north to Alaska or south to South America. For now, though, it's commuting and long weekends where 4WD might be very helpful but crawling along in LO won't be required. Baby steps...

So, what are we working with? As noted, the Grey Ghost is a 1998 FJ62, originally with A440F auto (the auto is dead, which helped prompt this swap). Since it's been running either 31s or 32s for Lord knows how long, it's got close to 300K miles though the speedo says something closer to 250K. Supposedly the Original Owner used to to tow trailers to rodeos all over the southwest, and the Grey Ghost is showing those miles but her spirit is strong. For the swap, we have already purchased a lot of the big ticket items, and the teardown has begun. The devil is in the details, though...

Here is what we've got:

- Gen III Vortec L59 FlexFuel engine w/118K miles from a single-owner 2006 Tahoe that was Florida-based, along with the mated 4L60E. This is a DBW, returnless-fuel setup, and included all accessories, harness, computer, etc. Please keep this in mind when the advice starts coming. The engine/tranny was bought from OK Auto Parts in Richland, MS, via eBay for $2700 including shipping. So far, so good - at least until we actually take delivery of the drivetrain this week!

- From AA, we've ordered the 50-0408A adapter kit to mate the 4L60E to the original 19-spline TC. Also ordered a rebuild kit for the TC since, you know, it's going to be taken apart and all (so glad my brother is doing this). Despite the mixed reviews, also went with the AA motor mounts and crossmember mount. That said, we're going to see what the x-member mount is actually going to require; better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!

- From Amazon - it's amazing what you can get off of Amazon at low prices - the Lokar 12" shifter along with the rectangular bezel with vertical LED indicator, and a K&N cold air intake. Also got a Derale tranny cooler, but whether we use that or not is TBD (much more to follow on that).
This is basically what's going to get us started. Kota is already pulling the front end (see pics) and we've got the drivetrain parts and mounts to get going. The alligator closest to the canoe - the fuel system - will be the subject of my next post.

These are the items we are considering for other major (and minor) components at this point, and we welcome input - constructive criticism is welcome! - and recs:

- Aeromotive FPR, S/S braided fuel lines, Russell anodized fittings, stock fuel pump, Aeromotive filter (separate post coming next on fuel system)
- Cooling system: still working this one out. Everything from stock radiator, custom shroud, and mech fan to a custom Griffin radiator setup with elec fan and custom shroud. This option ranges in price from ZERO to about $1200, so...
- Harness: we understand the options between Howell, Painless, etc, but a trusted little birdie told me that TechRods, run by Jeff from FIS, is the way to go. Will explore but welcome input!
- Want to keep stock gauges if able, but will consider aftermarket if the budget allows. Likely aftermarket tach either way. Otherwise, want to utilize stock senders, gauges, etc to maximum extent possible.

Other than that, we'll discuss as it comes. An OME Med kit is definitely coming, but will hold until after the drivetrain is going since that's the priority. In the not-too-distant future we'll be putting on 33's on new wheels and getting paint and new bumpers, but that's a post for another day.

Here's my baby back home in Saint Simon's Island, sometime in 2013 I think.

upload_2016-3-21_21-50-21.png


And here's the "Before" pic of the engine bay that we're all familiar with...





And, finally, the beginning of the teardown...

IMG_9171.jpg


IMG_0984.jpg
 
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@NCFJ , thanks for the advice! We completely agree with you and, following much of the words of wisdom I've uncovered in the various threads, my intention is to spend a little more up front the first time. Someone, I don't remember who (@dbleon?) shared their grandmother's wisdom regarding people who are willing to spend good money on a mediocre solution up front - and then over and over again - rather than on quality goods that will last a long time - the first time! My parts, particularly on the fuel system and cooling system, will be high-quality as much as the budget will allow.

That said, I didn't mention the parts budget earlier. Again, full disclosure for those thinking about this, so please give your feedback. I'm looking to keep the sum total of the parts at or below $8K. I've already put $4700 into the engine, transmission, adapters, TC rebuild kit, Lokar shifter and indicator bezel, CAI, and tranny cooler. Still have to run a high-quality hi pressure fuel system, wiring harness, cooling, and exhaust (likely going with dual-universal-cat, 2 into 1 Magnaflow setup - I don't have to worry about emissions in VA since 25-year exempt). These items will eat up a LOT of the remaining budget, and I will still have lots of cats and dogs to pay for.

NCFJ, would greatly appreciate your input on Griffin radiators. I know you like them!
 
I mentioned earlier the alligator closest to the canoe (that I can see right now, anyway): the fuel system. REALLY could use some input as we figure this out. The different 60 vs 62 swap threads and what kinds of Vortecs are being swapped in have really muddied the waters.

Again, my 62 is getting an '06 LM7 with returnless fuel system. I don't see why we can't use the stock fuel pump (though I would probably replace it first since I don't know how many miles are on it) running through a filter to an Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator providing 68 psi to the fuel rail and a return line back to the tank. Seems like a simple but effective setup. I plan on using Earl's S/S -6AN hose, Russell -6AN fittings (including a quick disconnect on the OEM fuel rail fitting), and Aeromotive 12303 40-micron filter on the feed line.

Anybody have positive or negative experience with a similar setup? And which filter would be best to run in this scenario - a 100-, 40-, or 10-micron? My understanding is less microns are better after the pump, more microns before pump...

Fuel system experts, please weigh in! @MANUCHAO, I know you've weighed in on a lot of fuel questions....

I'm trying to solve this asap so that Kota can have the fuel lines run before setting the new drivetrain in... Thanks!
 
Hey! Iwas hoping this thread would go vroom. Overall sounds like you are on track.. Under 8k is very doable with quality parts so long as you dont get sucked into restoring too many ancillary items. Hopefully you got lucky with a good example to start with.

Many people report that the OE 62 fuel pump works fine. PM clonestocker. Matt put a GM pump or equivalent to MATCH his motor in the stock 62 assembly hanger. His swap is really clean he also positioned the engine withe the stock trans crossmember while using a 4l60e. he didnt detail this on the internet to my knowledge..........


If the pressure output of the pump is ok, the delivery curve may be the only question. not sure if it is critical in a positive pressure system with the roller vane style pump. That's a ? For the engineers here.

IMO always keep in mind parts store availability. The aeromotive regulator should work great, but if it ever fails it may be harder to find a similar part to R&R. Versus for instance a vette filter/regulator combo which is available much more readily and is cheap too.

If you can swing hard fuel lines all the way to firewall... do that Get you a straight piece of steel line made withe fittings soldered ...bent to fit

If you are emissions exempt, you can run without catalytics. Tuning may need modded.
 
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@dbleon, very pleased to see you on Page 1. I've followed many, many of your comments and posts over the years.

I'm going to wait for more people to chime in on the OE 62 fuel pump but I hear your concerns. Aeromotive actually makes a repair kit for the FPR I want (13109) but it may even be worth coughing up the dough for a spare FPR just in case (140 on Amazon). Like you said, waiting for the much smarter fuel guys to chime in. I hear you Lima Charlie (I saw the Airborne tab on your dash) on the Vette filter and I could definitely go that route, but I'm building for the long haul - and not so much extreme off-road, must-have-cheap-and-easy-replacable-parts-on-hand environment.

I'm intrigued by the hard lines to the firewall concept - I can see the value in doing that, then running the braided steel hoses in the engine bay. I have to be sure of my setup before I commit to that, though, which goes back to my last post.

Considering I'll be in VA for the foreseeable future, I am past the 25-year exemption. However, I recall a passionate "soapbox" post written by you that implored the rest of us to run cats for the benefit of our children and Mother Earth... so, I will do just that. Small price to pay for a couple of Magnaflow universals, and a bulletproof Cruiser won't do us any good in 100 years if there's no forest left to run in...
 
Looks like it will be a fun build... couple questions...
- Any particular reason you are going with an aftermarket radiator? (yours look a bit rusty so assuming that)
- Why pay for super impressive expensive things like the FPR when the vette filter will do the same for close to the same cost and when you are out camping and breakdown in BFE you can easily get a replacement?
- Why wait on the lift? Want to make sure that you are not using the stock LM7 oilpan as it will run into fitment issues, especially if leaving suspension stock currently. Current consensus is that the H3 kit is the way to go for the best fitment.
- Why two cats? Look at Forge Specialities recent thread and the beautiful job he has done with the single cat. Reduces your cost some and would allow for a "cleaner" setup.

If you haven't found it I have a thread out there with my notes spreadsheet. Lots of info and build links. Might be worthwhile for your brother while he is building.
 
@dbleon, very pleased to see you on Page 1. I've followed many, many of your comments and posts over the years.

I'm going to wait for more people to chime in on the OE 62 fuel pump but I hear your concerns. Aeromotive actually makes a repair kit for the FPR I want (13109) but it may even be worth coughing up the dough for a spare FPR just in case (140 on Amazon). Like you said, waiting for the much smarter fuel guys to chime in. I hear you Lima Charlie (I saw the Airborne tab on your dash) on the Vette filter and I could definitely go that route, but I'm building for the long haul - and not so much extreme off-road, must-have-cheap-and-easy-replacable-parts-on-hand environment.

I'm intrigued by the hard lines to the firewall concept - I can see the value in doing that, then running the braided steel hoses in the engine bay. I have to be sure of my setup before I commit to that, though, which goes back to my last post.

Considering I'll be in VA for the foreseeable future, I am past the 25-year exemption. However, I recall a passionate "soapbox" post written by you that implored the rest of us to run cats for the benefit of our children and Mother Earth... so, I will do just that. Small price to pay for a couple of Magnaflow universals, and a bulletproof Cruiser won't do us any good in 100 years if there's no forest left to run in...


I know there are people who have considerable more wrenching experience than I do but math is math and cutting corners is a risk. The Gen III engines called for 58 psi of fuel pressure so anything less is taking a chance. Walbro says the stock 62 pump comes in at 41 psi although I haven't put a gauge on mine.
I agree on the Vette filter regulator and Speedway Motors not only sells it with the fittings LS Fuel Filter/Fuel Regulator Kit
but if you want an external pump you can get that too
LS1 Fuel Delivery Kit

David
 
Nice looking transplant you got there..
In on the cell right now, but really quick....

I too would go with the WIX filter.. I think is 58 psi needed, but could be wrong...

Run the two cats if you can.. Nothing wrong with it being a 50 state legal swap.......

FIS as in fuel injections specialities?
If that's them I'll be wary about.. I got burned back then, and could not recommend them in any good fate...

If it's not..then please disregard the above comment...
What specific do you want to know about the fuel system... I got all my info from other MUDDERS in here... But would be happy to help in any way I can...
 
Go with the stock FJ62 fuel pump. I was on the ropes on this issue too but after a lot of research, I haven't heard one person say that it did not work for them. This includes MarkN, who has a must read thread on 62/vortec swaps, and 35inchoverdrive, who is apparently a professional builder. Corvette fuel filter/pressure regulator is a no brainier. You can modify the stock transmission crossmember to work, probably easier than using the AA unit. Check out how35inch overdrive did it; really nice! Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the AA crossmember is not a bolt in and will require some fabrication. The stock shifter can be modified to mate with the 4L60E, and you won't need to cut a hole in the transmission tunnel to accommodate the Lokar shifter. If you get the transfer case close to the stock position you can use the stock drive shafts. May or may not need a different oil pan, depending on the lift. If you have the stock wiring harness, it can be modified to work as a stand alone unit. You will need to have the ECU reflashed. LT1SWAP.COM explains how, and after researching his website, will give you a feel on whether or not it is something that can be done yourself, or if you want to farm it out. I'm rambling, sorry. Let me know if I can be of any help!
 
And.... this is exactly why this forum is so valuable! Thanks Manu, Grumpy, and DaytonaDogie for chiming in on the fuel system. After reading about MarkN's experience as well, I feel like we have a couple of new, 'mo betta options to try. Thoughts/concerns, please:

1) Based on @MarkN's experience (and others), we can run the stock FJ62 fuel pump (though I would replace it since I have no idea how many miles are on it; I know I haven't replaced it in ten years) to the Wix filter/regulator (the Corvette filter) then feed on straight to the fuel rail. This engine has a returnless fuel system but I guess we would still have to run a return from the filter/regulator back to the tank?

2) Modify the stock fuel pump hanger assembly to take the GM OEM fuel pump for that engine (which will push fuel at the stock pressure) through a GM OEM fuel filter to the rail. No return line, but this would essentially be the exact same as the stock setup in the vehicle it came out of. Why has no one done this (that I know of)? What are we missing here? If there is a strong case to be made for a return line on this returnless engine, I would then have to use the Aeromotive FPR or...

3) A third alternative would be same as above but use the Wix filter/regulator rather than GM OEM filter and run a return line from the filter.

***QUESTION***: What Dakota and I don't understand is why so many guys run return lines (whether from a standalone FPR like the Aeromotive or from the Wix filter) on Vortec models that use a returnless fuel system. Why don't more people run a stock Chevy/GM fuel system in the 62 (OEM pump, OEM filter to the rail)? Then there are no concerns about pressure and no need for a regulator.

Just some thoughts about things that have confused me a bit, and I get more confused when I don't see others running simpler systems (nothing wrong with fancy, though). I myself am leaning to the FJ62 pump (based on the experience of others) to the 'Vette filter. Simple and cheap(er); sounds like the pressure works. Dakota is leaning towards modifying the pump assembly to take the GM OEM pump and using a GM OEM filter to give gas to the ending the way the Vortec was intended to get it. I think he just wants to mod something, though.
 
Looks like it will be a fun build... couple questions...
- Any particular reason you are going with an aftermarket radiator? (yours look a bit rusty so assuming that)
- Why pay for super impressive expensive things like the FPR when the vette filter will do the same for close to the same cost and when you are out camping and breakdown in BFE you can easily get a replacement?
- Why wait on the lift? Want to make sure that you are not using the stock LM7 oilpan as it will run into fitment issues, especially if leaving suspension stock currently. Current consensus is that the H3 kit is the way to go for the best fitment.
- Why two cats? Look at Forge Specialities recent thread and the beautiful job he has done with the single cat. Reduces your cost some and would allow for a "cleaner" setup.

If you haven't found it I have a thread out there with my notes spreadsheet. Lots of info and build links. Might be worthwhile for your brother while he is building.

Greg, thanks for the input and questions! I have followed your thread as well and I got your spreadsheet from @fjeng. Many thanks!

To answer your questions:
1. My brother pulled the OE radiator this weekend and swore I needed a new one. I trust him, and it's a chance to upgrade. Will overresearch it, of course, but likely go with a Champion Aluminum (used by @theron and @MarkN among others) unless @NCFJ can convince me to splurge on the Griffin custom-made combo radiator with electric fans...

2. I flew Navy jets for a living so I like "super impressive expensive things" made to military aero specs like Aeromotive. :grinpimp: That said, you and the others are right; I'm not building a 900HP hot rod here, I'm building a DD and weekend excursion rig and the money I save by keeping it simple will pay for other upgrades.

3. Waiting on the lift because I'm prioritizing current funds on hand to the swap. If I stay on budget, OME goes on as planned. Suspension and springs work fine right now but they are very tired; even so, they'll get me through a few more months until I can shake the money tree and see an OME kit fall out (HT to @FJ60Cam on that).

4. As someone mentioned, 50-state compliant is not bad, and no real loss of performance these days with two cats. They aren't that expensive for universal cats, either, and I like clean air (I contributed enough to putting bad things in the environment via 1,600 hours in the cockpit).
 
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I know there are people who have considerable more wrenching experience than I do but math is math and cutting corners is a risk. The Gen III engines called for 58 psi of fuel pressure so anything less is taking a chance. Walbro says the stock 62 pump comes in at 41 psi although I haven't put a gauge on mine.
I agree on the Vette filter regulator and Speedway Motors not only sells it with the fittings LS Fuel Filter/Fuel Regulator Kit
but if you want an external pump you can get that too
LS1 Fuel Delivery Kit

David
Hey Grumpy, I saw your thread and MarkN's reply from yesterday, and the consensus seems to be that the stock FJ62 fuel pump puts out sufficient pressure to feed the Vortec without any problems. I assure you there won't be any cutting corners when it comes to the fuel system!

Thanks for the lead on the filter kit at Speedway; I haven't seen that kit yet and if we go that route I'll definitely get that!
 
FIS as in fuel injections specialities?
If that's them I'll be wary about.. I got burned back then, and could not recommend them in any good fate...
Manu, I understand that Jeff, who ran FIS a few years ago, left the company a while back and either started or went to work with TechRods. They get good marks on the LS hot rod swap sights and I've seen that some people here have used them and haven't heard complaints. Maybe your bad experience with FIS came after Jeff left? Either way, a custom harness to my specs will be about $600 or so; I'm happy to save $400-500 over the bigger name-brands if it's a quality product.

I would love to hear from anyone that has done business with Techrods before I order from them...
 
Go with the stock FJ62 fuel pump. I was on the ropes on this issue too but after a lot of research, I haven't heard one person say that it did not work for them. This includes MarkN, who has a must read thread on 62/vortec swaps, and 35inchoverdrive, who is apparently a professional builder. Corvette fuel filter/pressure regulator is a no brainier. You can modify the stock transmission crossmember to work, probably easier than using the AA unit. Check out how35inch overdrive did it; really nice! Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the AA crossmember is not a bolt in and will require some fabrication. The stock shifter can be modified to mate with the 4L60E, and you won't need to cut a hole in the transmission tunnel to accommodate the Lokar shifter. If you get the transfer case close to the stock position you can use the stock drive shafts. May or may not need a different oil pan, depending on the lift. If you have the stock wiring harness, it can be modified to work as a stand alone unit. You will need to have the ECU reflashed. LT1SWAP.COM explains how, and after researching his website, will give you a feel on whether or not it is something that can be done yourself, or if you want to farm it out. I'm rambling, sorry. Let me know if I can be of any help!
Thanks for the inputs and as you can see I'm rethinking the fuel system. Leaning toward modifying the stock crossmember as well and getting the $$$ back for the AA adapter. I want to keep the Lokar shifter; really like them and nice to add some personal touches to the build; no interest in staying bone stock for appearances. Only question is to keep the 12" shifter I ordered or send back for a 16".

*** Thanks to you and @gregnash for bringing up the upgrade to an H3 oil pan; this seems to be pretty popular on more recent builds. Can anyone else confirm that this was a "must-do" or has it been hit and miss? That's a roughly $150 expense that I'd prefer to direct somewhere else if I don't absolutely need it...***
 

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