Yeah, another bomber thread

Discussion in 'Chit-Chat' started by Jman, Jul 13, 2005.

  1. Jman

    Jman

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    Seems the four bombers in the UK were British born youngsters--what do you think of that? It makes me think two things:

    (1) They were wayward youth that got sucked into a bad scene and used by some crazy jihadists.

    (2) That they might not have even known they were bombers--suicide bombers using timers? Maybe they were asked to deliver packages? :rolleyes:

    I don't really believe the second thing I typed, but I did think it for a bit. Also, isn't there some jihadist rule that you have to travel to do jihad, you're not supposed to fight against your own country? (Yeah, I know, bombers following rules--yeah, right.)
     
  2. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    ok i'll bit jman :D

    i think they are plain vanilla islamic terrorists. the shoe bomber was english too and he was a suicide bomber. the guy in holland who murdered van gogh was dutch. he waited around for the cops and just announced to a court he would do it again.

    there is no surprise they are british. london is the intellectual and organizational centre of the muslim extremist universe and leeds/bradford in yorkshire where these kids came from has probably the greatest concentration of muslims outside of the middle east.

    i think for quite a while the extremist muslims in western countries have been as extreme are more extreme than in the middle east. i say more extreme because in the west they enjoy more freedom, including freedom of association and speech (when we know what they are saying which is rare) and are fiercely protected from scrutiny or criticism by more mainstream muslim groups.

    this bombing has been informative in showing that the british are seriously screwed up about the threat of islam. possibly this will wake them up but given the half-witted response i heard from ordinary english folk after the bombs blaming it on bush and blair and the war in iraq, i won't hold my breath.
     
  3. Junk

    Junk

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    Don't know. What if someone kidnapped someone's kids or family and told the person they had to do this in order for them to be set free etc? Dunno, would you allow your family to be tortured or kill innocent people? Not saying that's what happened, but it's a what if for ya.

    All I know is no matter what it sucks.
     
  4. Jman

    Jman

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    The reports from friend and family members ran sort of this way: "they were just normal kids, until about a year ago, when they started growing long beards and going to a lot of meetings, then, BOOM."

    Semlin, I know what you are saying, and I agree--when in the West have more freedom, they have better access to targets, and they are exposed to everything about the West that frustrates them (freedom, democracy, hot chicks, alcohol, wealth, things that aren't Muslim, etc.).

    I just found it instructive that these bombers were young locals, not imports from Yemen or Saudi Arabia. And if I'm not mistaken, what they did violates some sort of jihadist code, too.
     
  5. Cruisin'Carolina

    Cruisin'Carolina

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    Tell me more about this code you are referring to.

    Only reason I'm asking is that I haven't been able to discern that these fawkers have any integrity whatsoever, so the idea of a code sounds novel.
     
  6. neowulf

    neowulf

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    totaly brainwashed,
    typical religon style , whel hven you navigate of an 2000+? year old map you are close to crasy anyway.
    religion suck, in a couple of thousand years they probably have replaced the maps with some newer ones and people are going arond praicing artur dent or bilbo sekker,
    be nice or gollum will get you. dam'n i dislike religion
     
  7. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    um, is that you, lx'treme?
     
  8. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    okay, so you hire a kid to deliver a package, tell him it has to be somewhere at a spec time and off he goes.

    BOOM!!

    not saying this is what happened but it is a possibility...

    sad, no matter what.
     
  9. 2badfjs

    2badfjs

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    (religion suck)

    careful what you say 'sven'
     
  10. swank60

    swank60

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    On this comment, I heard someone talking about this the other day (won't say who, it's a secret. :D ) and I still disagree with the whole idea that "they hate feedom, so they're attacking us..." What if all of these attacks are rooted in something more subtle, like having American bases in the middle east? Or the US' support of Israel? Which is more likely than even the idea that it has to do with the invasion of our culture into their's (which could still be a pretty important part of it.)

    That said, I think the London bombings should teach us that this is a much more complex issue than we can even imagine right now. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - this isn't going to go away because both sides seem to lack the capacity for allowing gray area...every situation is black and white only, and neither side cares to hear what the other has to say...we've been on that track for a long time, and it's not going to end for a very, very long time. (And I'm not lending justification to terrorist acts - these kids prove that catching these violent people is more of an art than a science.) Our error stood out to me on comments I heard one of the CIA guys in charge of terrorist investigations: "A bombing is a bombing - whether it's the IRA, Hammas, etc..." then he was asked what the difference was between various Islamic sects, and he had no idea. If you want to know how to stop the bombers, you have to think like a bomber. You hire a thief to catch a theif, basically...

    Complicated. The London bombings make it more complicated.
     
  11. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    4 kids with big honking backpacks drive rental cars to luton,take a train to london then depart in different directions all at once. they never look in those backpacks. coincidemce????
     
  12. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    Ok, I'll play ... out my ass .. but I'll play


    You want a task done .. so you recruit your flesh, and slowly begin conditioning them. You repeatedly have them follow the same task .. each week for 2 months. Each time following the same routes, use of vehicles, backpacks .. maybe they are delivering soccer gear to a team practice. They may be curious at first and test limits .. peek at the bags etc .. but what matters is that you end up with a conditioned , reliable group for the FINAL match.

    "This is the final match guys! Don't screw this up! We're counting on you to be on time .... bla bla"


    KABOOM


    Oh yeah , forgot .. hot/cold/hot/cold :D



    TY
     
  13. neowulf

    neowulf

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    i think you just tell them that having a bomb in a backpack is a werry werry good idea and they will find paradice if they do , over and over and over again then slowly they will dischard reality and substitut it with fantasy (other people who does this go to the loonyhouse but with religin they are home free)

    i am werry sorry if i have offended annyone just shearing my opinion, sorry,will not post in this thred again.
     
  14. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    Swank you ignorant slut :flipoff2:

    there is nothing "complicated" about the goals of or the solution to fundamentallist islam. they think we are infidel scum and their goal is to take over the the world and there is no solution unless you defeat that movement. End of story. Also, by the way, no matter how many times you use the word "complicated" it does not impart any more meaning to it. In fact I get this image of you as joey tribiani from friends playing a soap opera doctor stroking his chin trying to look thoughtful and saying "it's very complicated". sorry but there is nothing grey about this issue. Here is a good article in a liberal newspaper by a longtime liberal, chris hitchens. Read the whole thing, but here is an extract that cuts to the chase

    "We know very well what the "grievances" of the jihadists are.

    The grievance of seeing unveiled women. The grievance of the existence, not of the State of Israel, but of the Jewish people. The grievance of the heresy of democracy, which impedes the imposition of sharia law. The grievance of a work of fiction written by an Indian living in London. The grievance of the existence of black African Muslim farmers, who won't abandon lands in Darfur. The grievance of the existence of homosexuals. The grievance of music, and of most representational art. The grievance of the existence of Hinduism. The grievance of East Timor's liberation from Indonesian rule. All of these have been proclaimed as a licence to kill infidels or apostates, or anyone who just gets in the way.

    For a few moments yesterday, Londoners received a taste of what life is like for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, whose Muslim faith does not protect them from slaughter at the hands of those who think they are not Muslim enough, or are the wrong Muslim.

    It is a big mistake to believe this is an assault on "our" values or "our" way of life. It is, rather, an assault on all civilisation. I know perfectly well there are people thinking, and even saying, that Tony Blair brought this upon us by his alliance with George Bush.

    A word of advice to them: try and keep it down, will you? Or wait at least until the funerals are over. And beware of the non-sequitur: you can be as opposed to the Iraq operation as much as you like, but you can't get from that "grievance" to the detonating of explosives at rush hour on London buses and tubes."

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_obj...2&headline=we-cannot-surrender-name_page.html
     
  15. Landpimp

    Landpimp GOLD Star

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    I think I saw that movie :D

     
  16. Bluto

    Bluto

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    Jman. for this particular situation (using locals and young people to do the dirty deeds - done dirt cheap), the extremist fundamentalist Islamist cleric or leader "who are usually from abroad" take advantage of some youngsters who are somehow alienated from local society. They find individuals who were discrimated or had an experience that targeted their ethnicity, religion, or culture. From there, these individuals are easy marks. From my experience, the Quran is very empowering. It can be easily used to sway people who are lost or downtrodden. Sounds familiar? Hitler, Mussolini, and the likes (for liberals and democrats - W) used it during their time. Target the ones who are well off or in power and get even- old formula. I forgot to answer - the first choice. oo oo oo am I right teach? :D
     
  17. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    i don't know about being taken advantage of by foreigners. these guys had their eyes wide open and there are plenty of british extremists. They were part of a mainstream jihadist movement among young british muslims. I'll use another liberal news source, the Christian Science Monitor..

    "... the attacks are turning attention to the increasing numbers of young British Muslims who are rejecting their parents' traditional culture in favor of a radical and expansionist Islam. This strikingly Western version of Islam combines an independence of thought with a contempt for established traditional scholarship and a theme of teenage rebellion.

    "Getting involved in radical Islam is an emotional thing rather than a rational decision," says Abdul-Rahman al-Helbawi, a Muslim prayer leader. "And it's not a matter of intelligence or education - a lot of these radicals in Britain are very well-educated."

    In Dalston market in north-east London on Thursday, "Abdullah," a Muslim watch-mender and evangelist, was in a pugnacious mood.

    "We don't need to fight. We are taking over!" he said. "We are here to bring civilization to the West. England does not belong to the English people, it belongs to God."

    Hours after the bombings, Helbawi logged onto an Internet chat room run by British Muslim extremists. "They were all congratulating each other on the attacks," he said. "It was crazy. They were talking about how they had won a great victory over the infidels, as if they had just come back from a battle."

    Although so far, there is no evidence that British Muslims were involved in the bombs, there is little doubt that many British Muslims feel that Britain "deserved" the attacks for supporting the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    "Because Muslims explain the conflicts in Iraq, Kashmir, and Israel through Islam, every Muslim feels involved," said Helbawi. "People watch television and see Palestinian women being hit and pushed around by Israeli soldiers, and get angry and feel that they have to do something."

    But beyond anger, a sense of alienation often drives radical Islam. Many second- and third-generation immigrants find themselves cut off not only from their parents' cultures but also from a British one that includes alcohol and looser sexual mores.

    "If you don't drink, it really cuts you off from English society," says Ummul Choudhury, a London-based Middle East analyst for the Gulf Centre for Strategic Studies. "The view of the older generation is also that you do not integrate. If you do, you are told you are betraying your culture and religion."

    The resulting isolation makes it easier for young Muslims to develop a contempt for British society.

    "There is also a lot of racism toward white British people," says Ms. Choudhury. "It's not really something that people want to talk about, but there are definitely some things that Muslims say between themselves that they would never say in front of white people."

    For frustrated and isolated young Muslims, radical Islam is not difficult to find. Girls in particular are often prevented from going out at night and can be easily drawn into online Muslim communities where they come into contact with other disillusioned Muslims from across Europe.

    One leading analyst of the Islamic diaspora even compares the lure of extremist Islam to 1950s teens listening to Elvis in an attempt to shock their parents. "The son of a Pentecostal preacher in Brixton was recruited by the radical Muslims," says Nadhim Shehadi, acting head of the Middle East program at Chatham House.

    "This young man initially tried to upset his parents by becoming a rapper," says Shehadi. "But when his parents stopped objecting, he became a jihadi instead."

    http://csmonitor.com/2005/0711/p01s04-woeu.html

    To see what leaders in British muslim groups are saying read this.

    http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=748
     
  18. Bluto

    Bluto

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    "Getting involved in radical Islam is an emotional thing rather than a rational decision," says Abdul-Rahman al-Helbawi, a Muslim prayer leader. "And it's not a matter of intelligence or education - a lot of these radicals in Britain are very well-educated."

    "We don't need to fight. We are taking over!" he said. "We are here to bring civilization to the West. England does not belong to the English people, it belongs to God."

    But beyond anger, a sense of alienation often drives radical Islam. Many second- and third-generation immigrants find themselves cut off not only from their parents' cultures but also from a British one that includes alcohol and looser sexual mores.

    "If you don't drink, it really cuts you off from English society," says Ummul Choudhury, a London-based Middle East analyst for the Gulf Centre for Strategic Studies. "The view of the older generation is also that you do not integrate. If you do, you are told you are betraying your culture and religion."

    The resulting isolation makes it easier for young Muslims to develop a contempt for British society.

    "There is also a lot of racism toward white British people," says Ms. Choudhury. "It's not really something that people want to talk about, but there are definitely some things that Muslims say between themselves that they would never say in front of white people."

    For frustrated and isolated young Muslims, radical Islam is not difficult to find. Girls in particular are often prevented from going out at night and can be easily drawn into online Muslim communities where they come into contact with other disillusioned Muslims from across Europe.

    There a lot in your post that supports my opinion. I think we can resolve some of the problems on a social level but I feel in conjunction we have to solve this militarily or by force. But it is a difficult balancing act. We got to start somewhere - gotta to get rid of the bad guys first. But this problem is nothing new in human history - same story different players.
     
  19. swank60

    swank60

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    Oh Hell, I think I agree with Semlin on this one...

    I do think that our own expansion is part of the reason for the attacks. That's undeniable. Bin Laden himslef went on and on about bases of op in Saudia Arabian holy territory...

    And I guess I need to clarify on the "complicated" thing. What's complicated is who is doing this crap (recruitment), and why - the actual act of it, the brainwashing, etc. Recruiting from within like that is pretty charismatic, really, and the method for recruiting in Syria, Iraq, or London are all going to require a totally different approach - it's basically marketing, if you get right down to it. To convince someone to kill themselves and others in their own community, where they live, makes the ability to track these f'ers and their ilk that much more...er...complicated. It's like Jman said, they aren't from Syria or anywhere else, they're homeboys. All of this rings of Timothy McVeigh or David Koresh, only more covert, more hidden, but mush more wide-spread and systematic...and that complicates the act of tracking them and getting to them, as well as communicating with those whom they recruit. As I mentioned above, when the CIA guy in charge of terrorism doesn't know the difference between one sect and another, and feels like "Ah, hell, a bombing is just a bombing..." then they're dealing with the symptoms, not the root of the problem. You want to stop the suicide bombings, part of your work has to be done taking the motivation away from potential attackers. You still have to find the high-preists of stupidity and violence - but if you can steal their fire, and steal their recruits...

    but you know...that's complicated :flipoff2:
     
  20. Bluto

    Bluto

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    Easy to say if you are oppose to this policy(s). But the struggle between Islam and the rest of the world has its roots in the very begininng. How can we explain those conflicts that has nothing to do with the US and Israel? Past and present. The struggle in Africa and Asia. Muslims killing Christians and other faiths. Locally in these parts of the world, there are no US bases or Israeli influence in local politics. Mostly ideological differences.
     
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